Episode 47: The Discovery Process For A Building Company With Russ, Sky & Andy

In episode 47 of the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, we’re joined by Co-founders of the Association of Professional Builders Russ Stephens and Sky Stephens, along with APB’s Head Coach, Andy Skarda. Throughout this episode, the trio go over how to create an effective discovery process for a building company.

 

Inside episode 47 you'll discover

• The different discovery questions you need to ask
• Some great examples of discovery questions
• The ways in which you can manage expectations
• How to spot red flags
• Where most builders struggle when it comes to the discovery process
• And much, much more.

Listen to the full episode to find out the impact a discovery process can have for your building company.

 

Russ Stephens - Co-founder

Russ Stephens is a Co-founder of the Association of Professional Builders, a business coaching company dedicated to improving the residential construction industry for both builders and consumers. Russ is a data analysis expert who has introduced data-driven decision making to the residential construction industry. Russ is also a proud member of the Forbes Business Development Council.

Connect with Russ

 

Sky Stephens - Co-founder

Sky Stephens is a Co-founder of the Association of Professional Builders, a business coaching company dedicated to improving the residential construction industry for both builders and consumers. Sky is a proud member of The National Association of Women in Construction and she was also recognised as one of 2021’s Top 100 Women. 

Connect with Sky

 

Andy Skarda - Head Coach 

Andy Skarda has owned and led businesses in South Africa, the United States, South-East Asia, and for the last decade, Australia. With 30+ years of business experience, Andy heads up the coaching team at the Association of Professional Builders (APB), helping business owners in the building industry identify and implement the skills and systems they need to be successful, without needing to go back to school or more importantly, without going bust.

Connect with Andy

 

Timeline

1:44 Discovery process 

2:56 How it can impact the business

5:49 Selling on value over price

6:57 About discovery questions

14:00 Can you integrate qualifying and discovery?

16:46 Examples of discovery questions

20:17 Managing expectations

21:18 Financials and budgets

24:45 Tone of voice in the discovery session

26:01 Best practice with discovery questions

29:14 Looking for red flags

32:09 Conversational techniques

38:58 Where builders struggle with the discovery process

43:13 Getting builders to love the sales process

 

Links, Resources & More

APB Website

APB on Instagram

APB on Facebook
APB on YouTube

Join the Professional Builders Secrets Facebook group for builders & connect with professional builders world-wide.

Sky Stephens:

Discovery is what transforms your building company. 

Sky Stephens:

We want our builders to have a race to the top, not a race to the bottom.

Andy Skarda:

Well, that budget's meaningless without a discovery process. 

Andy Skarda:

A military plan doesn't survive the first shots being fired.

Russ Stephens:

In order to manage our client's expectations, we first need to understand what they are.

Andy Skarda:

Builders often don't have enough leads. Therefore, they're desperate. And because they're desperate, they try to cut corners.

Bosco Anthony:

Hello, and welcome to the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, a podcast by the Association of Professional Builders (APB) for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here, we discuss all things running a professional building company, from sales processes to financials, operations and marketing. I am joined today by Co-founders, Sky and Russ Stephens, as well as Head Coach, Andy Skarda, for APB. Sky, lovely to have you on here again.

Sky Stephens:

Thank you, Bosco. These are so exciting. I’m so happy to be here.

Bosco Anthony:

Russ, it’s always a pleasure to have you join us as well.

Russ Stephens:

Thanks, Bosco. I’m really looking forward to this one today.

Bosco Anthony:

And, Andy, thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to join us.

Andy Skarda:

It's always a pleasure to see you, Bosco. I’m happy to be here.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, you know I'm a bit of a sales nerd. So, the fact that we're talking about the discovery process today really excites me. I'm going to start off with a really important question: what is the discovery process, and how does it fit into the entire sales procedure?

Russ Stephens:

The discovery process is part of the process of qualifying new leads. However, that process is made up of two parts. There's the qualifying, and then there's the discovery. Qualifying is the first step, and that's where you can quickly identify if there's even an opportunity, just by asking some closed questions. It takes about five or 10 minutes, and it eliminates people who will never build or are simply using you as a price check. However, the second part of that process, which is the discovery, takes a lot longer, because this is where you go deep, and you ask open-ended questions that are going to reveal the emotional drivers behind a decision to build. The reason that's important is because, as humans, we make decisions based on emotion, but we then justify those decisions with logic.

Bosco Anthony:

So, how can the discovery side of the questioning really impact the business in a sales process for a building company?

Sky Stephens:

It's massive because, just as Russ said, you've got qualifying, and that's asking, “Do they qualify to do business with us?” We did a whole episode on qualifying and all those different questions. Discovery is what transforms your building company because, exactly as Russ just said, it's the emotional answers. It's the reasons someone is choosing to design and build their very own custom home and why it matters personally to them. These are very open questions. They're not a checkbox kind of answer, and you can hear all kinds of things. The answers essentially give builders and building company owners the ability to sell based on value over price.

Sky Stephens:

If you do discovery well, you’re going to hear what truly matters to these prospects in front of you. Maybe it's communication. Maybe it's the quality of finish, but it literally could be anything. Maybe it's the timeline because someone's coming to stay or a new baby is coming or whatever. You are going to get the real emotional driver and real value there. And you'll be able to sell on your value rather than price because you can, essentially, craft the perfect offer to match this person in front of you.

Russ Stephens:

The discovery creates stronger connections as well because you're going deep. You're asking those questions. And when you create stronger connections, that then improves the conversion rate, which obviously is very important for the whole sales process.

Sky Stephens:

It transforms an entire sales process, doesn't it? This could not be better timing, because Russ and I were actually on a call this morning together. We were on a call, essentially a sales call, with another company. I can't tell you how awful it was. Not only was there no qualifying, but there was such a lack of discovery, that they went straight into telling us all about their company, how good they are and that there's so much value they can deliver, without knowing anything about us. Why would we care at that point? They don't know anything about us. They don't know how they can actually help solve our problems, because we had a very specific goal. So, there was a lack of qualifying; I think their qualifying was just a couple of questions rather than very set criteria. 

Andy Skarda:

Are you breathing?

Sky Stephens:

Yes. Do you have a pulse? But with such a lack of discovery, they had no idea the depth that we could have told them, that we were so ready to talk about. If you do a proper discovery, it lets the other person know that you truly care, and they feel heard. They feel seen because you have such a genuine interest in everything about this project. It literally happened this morning. It was just such a good reminder; this is too important.

Bosco Anthony:

Sky, you talked very quickly about selling on value over price. Why is that important in today's market?

Sky Stephens:

Well, at APB, what we've always said is, we want our builders to have a race to the top, not a race to the bottom. So, we are not here to service any of the cowboys in the industry that are just trying to undercut each other on price. That's not what it's about at all. In order to have a race to the top that means no one competes on price. The price is the price. What you are trying to compete on is value. What that value means to a prospect is going to be different for each one. 

Sky Stephens:

You can have your ideal clients, maybe they're all similar in what they're looking for, but one person is going to seriously value communication because of an experience they had. So, you can sell on value by overcoming all of those fears and pain points, by addressing them with guarantees and unique value propositions and different features and benefits. It just has to happen in this industry. Otherwise, you just get into a price war with every other builder in your area.

Bosco Anthony:

Are the discovery questions that we are inspiring our builders to use open-ended? What are they designed to do for a builder?

Andy Skarda:

I cannot remember a single client I've ever worked with who's told me they enjoy sales. It's the one thing that virtually every builder comes and tells us, "I hate selling." I think that's partly because selling as a process has a bit of a grimy reputation. What discovery does is stop the selling of what you have, and it moves the conversation to, “What need does the client have that I can fulfil?” That's critical to a builder because you've got to understand you're not selling a commodity. It's not a cap or a t-shirt or a pencil. This is, in some cases, a 12 to 18 month relationship, during which time you are going to spend the most money that this person has ever spent on a single thing ever in their lives. And that puts it into a completely different place.

Andy Skarda:

No builder wants to be selling but does want to be helping clients solve their problems, and then that's the thing. It turns the conversation around. It's the opportunity for you to use what you've been physiologically given: two ears, one mouth. In this part of the process, you should be listening. The questions you ask – are they open ended? Yes, they are. Why? Because you want the client to talk. You want the client to unpack those emotional reasons. 

Andy Skarda:

Done properly, what discovery will do is enable the client to tell you exactly how they want to be sold. We've literally seen this come to pass, where statements have come out from a client's mouth in the discovery process, and builders have been able to then essentially play those statements back to them, and that's been what sold them. It's logical if you think about it. "I'm thirsty. I'd like a drink of water." "I have a glass of water, would you like a drink?" Boom. Done.

Sky Stephens:

I love what you just said there, Andy, because they are open ended. I think this is where most of the training ends up coming from; they are open ended. When we teach discovery questions, we've got maybe seven, I think there are about seven discovery questions. You might think, "Oh, that's quite quick." But think back to our episode on qualifying, it's not just those seven qualification questions. It's getting the specifics. They're like pillars, and that's even more relevant when it comes to discovery. 

Sky Stephens:

There are seven main pillars for your discovery. But, my goodness, do you have to go so much deeper! So, you're just trying to get the prospect in front of you feeling so comfortable to really open up. "Tell me more about that. How do you mean?" and really, really dig and get as much clarity on everything as possible. If they're giving you very short answers, it's very surface level, you are not guessing the emotional responses, which is the whole point of discovery.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah.

Russ Stephens:

Yeah. What we're doing here is really revealing the drivers behind the decision to build and, like you said, Andy, is revealing the intel, isn't it?

Andy Skarda:

Yeah, absolutely.

Russ Stephens:

Gathering intel. You've got to lock this information because you are going to use this, all the way through the sales process, but most importantly, you're going to use it right at the crunch.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah.

Russ Stephens:

In the contract proposal, this is where you address all those things that came out in discovery.

Andy Skarda:

I think it's important also for you to realise that we don't have anything in our sales blueprint that doesn't have a goal. If you look at it, the purpose of this process or this piece of the sales blueprint is to get to the place where you can propose a concept agreement. The way we teach that, that's going to be paid for. So, what this is really doing is taking you to a place where two major things are going to happen. Number one, the B word comes up for the first time in its true context. 

Andy Skarda:

A lot of builders fall into the trap of going straight into asking, "What's your budget?" Well, that budget's meaningless without a discovery process. Because if a client tells you their budget is $300,000, and you don't know what the client wants, what can you do with $300,000? Do they want to build a three-storey luxury mansion, or do they want to build a granny flat? That is critically important in terms of understanding what it is that they're talking about first, and then being able to link an available amount of money to that particular process.

Russ Stephens:

It's a good point. You cannot disqualify people on budget during those initial closed qualifying questions, can you? 

Andy Skarda:

No.

Russ Stephens:

As you say, it's completely meaningless. You can only do it at the end of discovery.

Andy Skarda:

Yep.

Russ Stephens:

When you've got all that knowledge, you've got a good idea and you've built trust with them. Way too often, one of the first questions that gets asked within the first five or 10 minutes is, "What's the budget?" "No, they're dreaming. We can't help them." It's like a missed opportunity.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah.

Sky Stephens:

But how many clients or members have come to us very early in their journey, and we've taught this concept and they’ve said, "Well, I'm just going to waste my time then. I have to do all of this qualifying, and then do all of this discovery, to then find out the budget is unrealistic?" Let's talk about that, because that happens very frequently when you're new to this process and not quite understanding how discovery works. Because you’re too surfaced if you're still getting to that budget question, they qualify on everything else, something's missing.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah. I think Russ said it earlier, why we name these stages as two different things. We talk about qualification and discovery. The reason we do that is because, going back to Bosco's question, are discovery questions open ended? Yes, they are. Are qualification questions closed? Yes, they are. So really, we could almost call this qualification part two, because what you're doing is making sure that you're not wasting the client's time and your time. If they don't make it through those first seven questions in qualification, they're not even going to get into discovery because they're not the right client, and the quicker you both accept that, the better.

Sky Stephens:

The converse of that is they could be completely qualified on paper. They could make it through your qualification questions, but they could fall over somewhere in discovery when you start digging a lot deeper. And that's okay too.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah.

Sky Stephens:

Everyone should be investing that amount of time to properly qualify everybody. It's actually not a waste of time if you do it all in 30 minutes on that same phone call, as opposed to weeks, if not months, working with them for them to ghost you because of some other reason.

Andy Skarda:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bosco Anthony:

Have you fused the two processes together? Between the qualifying and the discovery, can you have them all in one go? Is there a way of doing it in an integrated manner too?

Andy Skarda:

It probably depends on what you’re doing. For a custom home builder, it's a reasonably simple transition. If you get to the end of the qualification and everything's tick, tick, tick, and yes, you can move ahead; you can pretty seamlessly move straight into discovery. When you talk about remodelling or renovations, things get a little more technical.

Andy Skarda:

I have the greatest respect for people who work in that space because they are venturing into the unknown, every single time they take on a project. There's that standard joke when people talk about planning as a business concept, that a military plan doesn't survive the first shots being fired. The problem with a remodeller or a renovator is, if you take that wall covering off, you have no idea what you’re going to find behind there. And it could be anything, including Granny. So there, we would normally recommend a separation and a physical site inspection as part of the discovery process. Go and have a look at the job if they qualify. Go and have a look at the job and run the discovery in tandem with your site visit.

Bosco Anthony:

Andy, I'm expecting a box of chocolates analogy from you right now, when it came to remodelling. I can see you there thinking, "Life is a box of chocolates, so is remodelling."

Andy Skarda:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Sky Stephens:

The discovery and qualifying can also be broken up, and we've got a lot of members who do it really successfully, especially for smaller building companies. If, as the owner, you are doing all of the sales, it's probably the one thing you end up holding onto the longest, as you start delegating a lot of other systems and procedures in the building company. You tend to hold onto sales, but as your marketing scales and your inquiries come up, you're going to get a lot more inquiries that you need to qualify. And that's when that headache comes up. "Ugh, I don't have enough time to go through all this qualification," and you start getting sloppy because you want to move faster.

Sky Stephens:

This is where you can actually separate your qualification and your discovery. You can give the task of qualification to anyone on the team, as long as you systemise it. 

Andy Skarda:

Great point.

Sky Stephens:

They can do the qualification. If they pass those seven questions and those seven checkpoints, then it can move on to you or someone else on the team, someone in sales, who can do the discovery. It's very much like another qualification, just like we've all talked about, but you can separate that procedure among different people, not just different phone calls.

Bosco Anthony:

I'm going to ask the question: can you guys give some examples of some of these effective discovery questions that can aid builders in the sales process? And why are these questions so important?

Russ Stephens:

Well, I think a good one to ask a potential client is: what's the most important thing about this project? What you are really trying to understand is what compartment the prospect falls into. Because typically, there are three things, and one of them is going to be of primary importance, and one's going to be of secondary importance. Those three things are quality, timeline and budget. For any prospect you speak to who’s looking to build, one of those is their primary focus. If they're building their first home, budget is going to be extremely important, because they simply don't have the ability to go over that budget. If relatives are coming over from overseas, and they need to be in by Christmas, timeline is their most important thing.

Russ Stephens:

Then of course, if they're older in years and they're building their dream home, they've built a few times before, it's very much all about the quality. Now, if you ask a prospect, "What's most important to you out of those three things?" they'll tell you, “All of them.” So again, when it comes back to discovery, it's not a closed question. It's an open question. By saying, "What's the most important thing about this project?" you're trying to coax out and understand what their primary reason is and then what their secondary reason is, because then you can tailor the way that you speak to them.

Russ Stephens:

Another good question to ask is, "What concerns you about building? Do you have any reservations about the build process?" What you want to hear about are those horror stories that their friends and relatives have had and things that might concern them going forward. You want to make sure you address those in your sales process, either through guarantees or showing how your process actually avoids these things happening to them, to reassure them. If you know what their concerns are, and you are the only one addressing those concerns, how many builders do you think they're going to be talking to by the time it gets to contract stage? You're going to be the only one.

Russ Stephens:

Another good questions is, "When would you like to be in your new home?" Again, if you ask someone when they'd like to start, they don't know how long the design process takes and how long construction takes. You are the expert; it's down to you to work backwards. Most people are blown away; they're very surprised at how long the whole design process takes, and they're not even too aware of how long the pre-construction stage takes either, when you've got the design and you need to get the engineering and the selections all documented. So, ask that question, get an idea of what their expectations are and work it backwards. You're the expert; you're going to guide them. It's really simple stuff when you hear it all. It's about having that conversation to reveal it in a relaxed atmosphere, rather than tick and flick like an insurance form.

Sky Stephens:

I think that's the key. It is so simple, so keep it so simple. The best sales in the world are the most simple. It's easy to remember, because they're not these complicated convoluted clauses that you need to remember to do this, that and that. Keep it simple, as Russ said. They're not necessarily groundbreaking, but if you do it well, it just works.

Bosco Anthony:

From the questions that you've given, Russ, it all sounds that some of them are also managing your future client’s expectations as well. It’s interesting that you ask the question, "When do you want to move into your home?" If someone has an unrealistic expectation, you want to manage that expectation before you even take the project on. It sounds like you're also looking at it not only from a client perspective, but also from your own point of view: "Is this the right client for us?" 

Russ Stephens:

Yeah, that's a really good point. In order to manage your client's expectations, you first need to understand what those expectations are. So again, this is why it's so important to do this research and uncover this intel.

Sky Stephens:

It's that whole idea of, “Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Did I take the words out of your mouth, Andy?

Andy Skarda:

Literally. I heard Meatloaf playing in the background as you went. 

Sky Stephens:

Seriously, the discovery just uncovers what you need to teach and share and help with.

Bosco Anthony:

We talked a little bit about the B word, a little bit about budgets. I want to get into why are the financials and budgets such a sensitive topic? What is the methodology of approaching this question with care, but also at the right time?

Sky Stephens:

Well, it's such a sensitive topic, because it's money. People can be a little bit private with money, naturally. But this isn't, "How much is that pair of shoes?" or "How much is this new laptop going to be?" This is serious money. This is often people's biggest, most expensive asset that they're ever going to purchase or pay for in their whole lives. So, we're not talking about just a couple of hundred dollars anywhere. It's serious money. And so, that B word, the budget question, can be so taboo to ask it too early, because there's just a lack of trust. It's like walking up to someone and saying, "How much is in your bank account?" You just wouldn't do that. So, you need to take them on a journey.

Sky Stephens:

If the client has come to you and you are talking, they know you're a custom home design and build company, and they've made an inquiry, then you can qualify them. You ask them those seven questions. Then you move into discovery. You need to understand where they’re at. "Why now? Why are you looking to design and build a new home? What concerns you about the building process? Blah, blah, blah." Move them through that process. So that by the time you ask a question that has something to do with, "By the way, how much money do you have?" there's a lot more reason and justification for asking this question. You can be really tactful about how you ask it as well. 

Sky Stephens:

You don't want to be gauche, by saying, "How much money do you have? How much is this?" It's better to ask, "How much were you planning to invest in this new home? Around $700,000? Maybe between $700,000 and $900,000, or over $900,000?" Especially if people are colder in front of you, if you let them self-identify into a category or put themselves into one of three, they can be a little bit more open. You're going to get some people on the other end who say, "Oh, our budget is $1.1 million," and they feel so comfortable because you've taken the time to get to know everything else about them. But certainly, it's a very warm way of opening up that conversation. Again, this is where you dig and you can get a little bit more information. But it's a pillar question.

Russ Stephens:

It's all about trust, isn't it? Really, that's the crux of this. It's sensitive because consumers don't trust builders when they go to meet them. That is why they're either reluctant to reveal their budget, or they're going to throw out a false figure. They reason, "If I tell the builder exactly how much I'm prepared to invest, they're just going to spend the lot, and maybe I could have got it $50,000 or $100,000 cheaper." 

Russ Stephens:

Now, for us in the industry, we know that's not true, because we know that's not how the industry operates. Competition sees to that. At the end of the day, the price is the price. It's going to be what it's going to be. But the budget helps the builder gain an understanding of what they're thinking in terms of quality level and inclusions, rather than what they're going to ultimately spend. It helps them understand where they want to go with the specifications. But it's very hard to get that across to consumers because there is this lack of trust at the beginning.

Bosco Anthony:

I guess also the tone of voice when you're navigating through this is just as important too, because if you are feeling uncomfortable having that conversation, I can only imagine what the consumer is feeling. If you feel like you're shaky when you're addressing the budget question or coming back from someone who's given you a really small budget, there's not so much you can do with it, I guess the tone of voice is really important to consider when you're manoeuvring through this conversation too.

Sky Stephens:

Totally. It is a conversation; that's the key word that you just said. It's a conversation. It's not an interrogation. It's not the insurance form to complete, as Russ just mentioned. It's a conversation. "We're just talking here. I'm not locking you into anything. You have the ability to change your mind. We're just talking."

Russ Stephens:

One of our members recently was on the podcast, and he was sharing how he hated sales, hated those conversations and was nervous and was sweating. You can imagine how that would come across to the client. If the builder's nervous about this project, should I be concerned? But now, he says he absolutely enjoys the process. And you can imagine how that comes across to prospects as well. When you're passionate about what you do, it fills the other side with confidence.

Bosco Anthony:

What are some of the best practices when asking discovery questions? And what are the things to avoid?

Andy Skarda:

I'll just carry straight on from where Russ and Sky have left this, because they've covered the first one, and that is, this is a conversation. If you're having a conversation, you take your time, and you have a sip of gin in between, and you work through it at the pace that works for both of you. That's the key. I don't think you can rush this, whereas the first part of this is maybe fairly staccato and almost anybody can do it. We say it so often on this podcast, people buy from people who they know, like and trust. So, we've covered trust fairly well already, but this is the conversation where people get to know you and like you, and vice versa.

Andy Skarda:

You've heard me say before, building a home, or renovating or remodelling a home, often takes longer than some marriages. This is not a quick tick and flick, that's not what this is. As much as the client is assessing you, you need to be assessing them, because we have so many of our members, and particularly the guys in the mentoring program, who become almost lifelong friends with a lot of their clients, because of the relationship that has been built over the 12 or 18 months, and the trust that has come out of the way they've handled that building project. This is your opportunity to decide whether or not you want to spend the next 12 months of your life with this person.

Andy Skarda:

Many builders have told us that at the end of this process, they just had that gut feel that this wasn't a good idea. But they ignored that feeling. And then they realised, three months in, they should not have ignored it. So, this is really the key here. This is where you start to make those decisions. Do I want to move ahead with this project? Slow it down, have a conversation and listen more than you talk.

Russ Stephens:

That's a really good point. I think we can learn a lot from the airline industry in that regard, because Sky's brother is a pilot. I remember him saying to me, as part of the interview process, which is very long and very demanding, what they're really trying to figure out is, could another pilot sit in the cabin for 12 hours with this guy? They don't want people they're not going to get on with. They're not going to fit the culture. They're not going to be able to get along with people in a confined space for an extended period of time, and they reject pilots or potential pilots on that basis. That's what we’ve got to be looking at in this industry as well. “Can I exist in a close relationship with this person for the next 12 months? Or do I want to?”

Sky Stephens:

If not you, think of your team here, because this is company culture. 

Russ Stephens:

Yeah.

Andy Skarda:

You don't want to be building Richard Cranium's next house. That's just the reality. Stay away from it.

Bosco Anthony:

What you're talking about now is not only just looking for a red flag. You're also looking at how to protect your team and your members and everyone in the company as well, protecting time, which is a big currency for everyone. So, I'm going to throw that question out there, what are the red flags to look out for during this discovery process, other than the fact that you want to have someone that you enjoy working for?

Russ Stephens:

There's a couple of questions that we always give our members to ask during this part of the process. One of them is, "Have you built before?" A lot of people will have built before, especially if they're building their dream home, and you follow on from that. "What did you like about that builder? And what did you like about the build process?" Because when you ask someone what they liked about something, sure enough, they're going to tell you what they disliked about it and the hardships and the problems. Yeah, they're going to come out pretty quickly. So that's all very good intel.

Russ Stephens:

But if they’ve built before and they like the builder, one of the questions you've got to be asking is, "Will that builder be quoting on this job?" Because, if they say yes, that is a huge red flag. You’ve got to ask yourself, “Why would you be talking to me?” They probably won't share with you, "Well, I'm just price checking to keep him honest." That is a complete waste of your time. So, that's not the conclusion you want to get to at that part of the discovery process, but it’s better you get to it now than three months down the line, when you’ve spent a lot of time offering your expertise.

Russ Stephens:

Another one that's important during the discovery process is extracting who is going to be involved in the decision-making process. There's a husband and wife who are both decision makers here. You can't take this stuff for granted. Sometimes, there might be a third person, perhaps another relation who’s included in the financing. You need to understand who these people are very early, because you don't want them coming in right at the death, where they can only make a decision based on price. You want them in at the beginning of the process, so that they can understand the value, and you can also understand their fears and what's important to them.

Russ Stephens:

When you do get those people who come to you, they might have a budget already fixed in their head, because someone down at the pub has told them, "This is what builders work on. It's $X per square metre," so all of a sudden, they're an expert, which is quite dangerous. For those kinds of people, rather than being dismissive or disqualifying or telling them that they're dreaming, just simply ask them, "What have you based that budget on?" because this can reveal some red flags for you as well. So, as you can see, they're all very soft questions in themselves. It's not a yes-no red flag, but as you go deeper, you're going to uncover things that, for sure, as you're halfway through the build, you'll be thinking, "Oh, we should have asked that."

Bosco Anthony:

It's interesting. What are some of the conversational techniques that can get the most out of the prospects that you're going through a discovery process with?

Sky Stephens:

As Andy mentioned before, we've got two ears and one mouth. So, the most important thing is to listen … and actually listen. I can't stress that. It's not being quiet just for the sake of being quiet. "I asked you a question, you're supposed to answer." Really listen. If you do not understand with total clarity what they mean, clarify it. You have to be able to understand everything. Not, "Do you know what I mean?" "Yeah. Yeah. I think I understand it." No, actually understand it. 

Sky Stephens:

So, there are a couple of techniques that can be used. The first one is obvious, and it is silence. If you can build the habit of not interrupting people, not liking the sound of your own voice more than other person’s, you need to be able to actually ask a question and let them speak. So, a really good technique is just staying silent. Even in your head, count to three before speaking again once the other person has finished talking.

Sky Stephens:

Often, they might just be pausing for breath. They might be gathering their thoughts, and they might be ready to keep going. So, if you can hold off in your response just for a little bit, leave that silence there. Naturally, some people can feel quite uncomfortable, so they are going to fill it, and they're going to keep talking; it's a nice invitation for someone to keep talking. If that was it, there was just silence, you've counted to three and there's no more, you can use some other techniques.

Sky Stephens:

We talk about mirroring, which is a fabulous technique. It's actually in the book, Never Split the Difference, by Chris Voss. I highly recommend reading that book. It's a great book. Everyone on our team has read it. Chris Voss teaches this concept called mirroring. It's not that whole NLP [neuro-linguistic programming] where you copy their body language. It’s not when they sit back, you sit back, or when they lean forward, you lean forward. It's a concept where, perhaps, they say, "Yeah, we have built before, but that was about 10 years ago." And you say, "10 years ago?" You just repeat the last two, three or few words that they have said; repeat it back to them with a slight inflection.

Sky Stephens:

It's as if you've just asked a question, but you've not used up all the questions you're allowed to ask, because it wasn't really a question, you've just repeated what they just said. So, if they're saying, "We haven't really thought about a budget," you say, "You haven't really thought about a budget?" It's just repeating it back to them to suggest, "It's okay. Keep talking. You were halfway through a sentence. Let's keep going." So that's a really good technique.

Sky Stephens:

Follow up questions are fabulous, such as, "Can you tell me more about that?" or "How do you mean?" Those kind of follow up questions are awesome when you’re trying to get some clarity. But another technique that you can use instead of asking a lot of follow up questions is using statements to respond to what they've just said. Statements like, "Okay. Tell me a little bit more about that," because that wasn't a question. There's no inflection. There could be a statement like, "That must be really frustrating," or "That must be difficult," or "That must be stressful." It's an invitation for them to say, "Yeah, it is because of this and because of that," and you get to go so much deeper. So, there are a lot of techniques you can use to get the other person talking and keep talking.

Sky Stephens:

Again, you are listening, actively listening. We haven't mentioned it at all in this episode, but it's too important not to mention, and I know it's boring, but write everything down. There is no point in doing a 45-minute to an hour's discovery if you’re not going to take detailed notes. You may as well not have done it. You don't remember everything. No one on your team, I don't care how good their memory is, remembers everything. If they're away or they go on holiday or they're sick and you need to pick it up, you have no idea where it left off. So, make those notes matter. You have the perfect opportunity to take down as many notes as possible, because they're the ones doing all the talking. You're just inviting them.

Russ Stephens:

Another great opportunity, if you're doing the discovery on the phone, is to utilise the mute button. When the other person's speaking, if you hit the mute button, that's going to create a delay for when you can jump back into the conversation. That little delay can encourage people to go deeper as well. Now, we call this embracing the silence and not being fearful of the silence. It can also happen that salespeople want to keep the conversation going. The other person might finish speaking, but they're still thinking, gathering their thoughts, and you can move away too quickly. Whereas if you just let that silence hang, they can continue and go deeper, and then you can get some real gold.

Russ Stephens:

I guess we're talking here in terms of the builder, the owner of the company, doing this. But if you've got a team, this is where it's really powerful to have recordings, so that you can listen to those and actually coach your team. It's one of the things that we found from listening to salespeople over the years. One of the biggest gaps is that they're jumping back in way too quickly. It's a very simple thing that you can do, which makes the prospect feel a lot more comfortable and reveals a lot more intel as well.

Sky Stephens:

Always have an excuse up your sleeve, because if you're silent for too long, and maybe they were finished talking, and there really is that awkward gap, you might hear them say on the other end of the phone, "Are you there? You still there?" You answer, "Yeah, I am. I'm just making some notes," or "I was just thinking about what you're saying." Have those ready. It's actually fine, and it goes to what we were talking about before. If you have that cool, calm, conversational energy, suddenly, it's not awkward anymore. They're just asking, "Are you there?" "Yeah, I'm here. I was just making a couple of notes about what you said. I found it really interesting. You said this. Tell me more about that." And it's a really easy way to come back from that.

Bosco Anthony:

Interesting, because you're also asking the builders to be present and mindful, which is an interesting observation, because we are in this day and age right now realising that it’s so important to create an authentic conversation. That's what I got from that entire presence is to teach people to be present as well.

Sky Stephens:

You’ve got to let them know, "I completely hear what you're saying. What do you mean by this?" Really tell them, "Those are good words," because you're saying, "Okay, great."

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, it's interesting. I think when I look at the sales process as well, I remember a time when, if someone was selling me something and they’d come back and remind me about something that I said, that I didn't even remember saying, it makes me think, "Okay. He was actually paying attention," or "She was actually paying attention." So, that's an interesting thing as well is when people take notes, and they remember things as well.

Russ Stephens:

So that's a great one as well, because that is consistency. That is reminding them to stay consistent with what they've previously said, which is incredibly powerful.

Bosco Anthony:

So, where do builders struggle with the discovery process? We've talked so much about the best practices. We've talked about the hidden secrets and some of those questions, but where do builders really struggle?

Andy Skarda:

Well, I think, Bosco, the answer to that lies in exactly what you ask. There is no process for most builders. Most builders see this at best as a necessary evil. They generally don't like doing it, and it is not a process. It's not something where they have systematically sat down and worked out, "I'm going to take an inquiry through these six steps, to get them to a place where I'm ready to propose a multi-hundred-thousand or million-dollar contract to them." So, it's actually the lack of process that causes the struggle.

Andy Skarda:

We've touched on the fact that a lot of people learn bad habits, because they don't know any better. It's not because they're in any way deficient, it's just that they're ignorant. I read this wonderful quote the other day that says, "We're all born ignorant, but we have to work really hard to stay stupid." It's one of those things that, as soon as somebody understands that if they have a repeatable process, it’s all leading to a conclusion. "I'm going to say this, then I'm going to say that. I'm going to ask this question, then that question."

Andy Skarda:

We've spoken about techniques and things here. I think it's important just to make it clear, this is not Jedi mind tricks. This is not, "Let me manipulate you to do something you don't want to do." This is a genuine conversation. As Sky said earlier, "Seek first to understand." Make sure that the cookie that this client wants, you can actually bake. Don't take them, for your sake and theirs, through weeks or months of preparation, to find out they want a chocolate chip, and you’re busy making coconut cream. You don't want to do that.

Andy Skarda:

The struggle here is: number one, builders often don't have enough leads. Therefore, they're desperate. And because they're desperate, they try to cut corners. Number two, the builder has no process. They need to sit down, and what they'll find in a lot of cases, if they think about successful sales, they'll start to see the commonality. "I did this, then I did that. Then I said this, then I said that." Those are the kinds of nuggets that they need to look for. 

Andy Skarda:

The big thing here is, builders are in a hurry. They're time poor. They want to get this done and out of the way. But this is worth every minute that you invest into it, no matter what the outcome is. If you do your job properly and the answer is, "We're not proceeding," that is such a blessing, because it frees you up to be able to work with people who have problems that you will be able to solve, or help them get into that home of their dreams.

Russ Stephens:

I think another area that builders struggle with in this process is trying to solve the client's or the prospect's problems or concerns too quickly. When you're going into this process, and you're listening to concerns and challenges, what you must remember is, this is a consultative approach. 

Russ Stephens:

What you need to do is let the tension build, because tension leads to attention, and this is what you really want from the prospect. So, when they start revealing things that might have gone wrong, you don't leap in there and explain how that won't happen with you because you've got this process. They come up with another concern and you've got this guarantee that covers it off. At this stage, you're just listening and making notes, as Sky said. This is very important, and you'll tie it all together at the end, in a summary. But moving too quickly to address those problems can just release tension.

Sky Stephens:

It gets people's backs up, doesn't it? They think, "Well, you don't know anything about me just yet. Just hold on. Who are you to tell me you're better? You've no idea." There's no permission earnt yet.

Russ Stephens:

I actually learnt his technique from a builder when I was selling software. This builder called to cancel. He told me why he was cancelling, and I just leapt straight in to give him the solution as to why that wasn't a problem, why that wasn't valid. He just told me to shut up and listen.

Andy Skarda:

There we go.

Bosco Anthony:

That's interesting. I have a question about the builders, actually. Andy, you brought this up too in past episodes, and I think, Russ, you also talked about this too, where we had builders who hated the process and then they got to love it. The question I have is, how did you create that transformation from not being so comfortable with the sales process to loving the sales process? Is it the fact that the routine of practice and the routine of having consistency in building this entire process is that what created success, and that's what gave the builders confidence? How did you get them to love the sales process?

Andy Skarda:

From what I've seen, it is really the foundational solution, and we have turned it into a process. We've broken it down into manageable, sequential, logical steps. Then, we work with builders on each step. "You can't go to discovery till you've done qualification. Let's get qualification nailed first. Once you can do that in your sleep, then let's work on qualification. Then let's go to concept. Then let's go to preliminaries. Then let's go to proposal. Then let's go to presentation." As each component gets worked on, and more than that, they start to see it working, they see that they're getting the results that we told them they'd get, that's what builds the confidence to the point that they actually start to enjoy it.

Sky Stephens:

Procedures make everything a lot less emotional. You're not hoping that you can build for everyone, because if you then disqualify them, you are not getting them to a certain point in your process and just doing anything to get them over the line because you need them at that point, and that makes it so much less emotional. So, it makes it easier to move on, I think. Then that transformation really happens because, in a sense, it gives builders permission to let go of certain people and move on, and then go talk to someone else, or permission to go deeper and talk for a lot longer with particular people as well.

Andy Skarda:

We've spoken a lot about niche. You don't want to build for everybody. That's the reality. You want to make sure that the people you build for are the people you can really be successful with and for. If you can get to that point, that's really part of what this process is: it’s making sure that there's a good fit between what you can deliver and what they're looking for. And if you get that part right, this becomes an absolute pleasure.

Bosco Anthony:

So, consistency builds comfort, and comfort builds confidence.

Andy Skarda:

There you go. Look at you. You should make t-shirts.

Bosco Anthony:

Paying attention. I'm paying attention. Well, my final question for all of you today is, where can builders get some of these amazing resources and tips and questions? Where can they go to get help to become better salespeople?

Russ Stephens:

I think a great starting point to not only go deeper on the whole stage of qualifying, but understanding the whole sales process as well, and how it affects every part of a building company, would be to go to Amazon and get the book, Professional Builders Secrets. It's also available on Audible, but that will give builders some great insights into not just discovery, but the entire sales process.

Andy Skarda:

This is not a plug, it's just an answer to your question. We've got some really good resources on our website around this subject. Obviously, if anybody's not yet a member, becoming a member of APB would put them straight into being able to do all of our training on this particular subject, which makes it really easy.

Sky Stephens:

I love Andy. He's always plugging membership in every single podcast episode, without fail.

Andy Skarda:

We want members. We love members.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, if it helps, I have done some of the training. And I have to say, I think I called it “the Netflix for training,” because it is amazing. I've gone through different layers and lots of different steps covered through this process. I've got to say, it's definitely given me a lot of confidence to learn more about this topic. I want to thank everyone for your time and your energy today and for another insightful interview. I look forward to jamming with you some more in the future. But again, thanks for being here.

Andy Skarda:

Thanks, Bosco.

Sky Stephens:

Great episode. Thanks, Bosco.

Russ Stephens:

Thanks, Bosco.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at APB can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com. See you next time.