Episode 50: Creating A Legacy In A Family Business With Phil Turner

In episode 50 of the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, we’re joined by Phil Turner, Managing Director of Turner Trading. Throughout this episode, Phil goes over the highs and lows of owning a business, how private mentoring transformed his business and the importance of creating a legacy.

 

Inside episode 50 you will discover

• Why leaving a legacy in a family business is important
• That setbacks do not define your business’s success 
• How to identify potential gaps in your current systems 
• Finding solutions to grow your business financially
• The importance of planning for the future
• And much, much more.

Listen to the full episode to learn more about the importance of building a successful business with the goal of leaving a legacy.

 

Phil Turner - Managing Director of Turner Trading

 

Phil is an enthusiastic, customer focused building contractor and the managing director of Turner Trading. With clever planning, high quality attention to detail, and careful consideration to the client’s needs, Phil executes homes which are comfortable yet practical and not only look great, but work in with the client’s lifestyle as well.

Connect with Phil

 

Timeline

1:32 About Turner Trading

4:25 The importance of leaving a legacy

7:54 Mistakes made along the way

12:56 No more difficult clients, ever!

15:44 How has APB helped with some of Turner Trading’s struggles?

20:09 The benefits of private mentoring 

23:41 How the mentoring program impacted Turner Trading financially

28:37 The system that completely transformed Turner Trading

32:25 The future for Turner Trading

39:54 Phil’s advice for builders thinking of joining APB and the mentoring program

45:42 Building a family legacy

49:09 Building relationships with other builders 

54:14 Planning for the future 

 

Links, Resources & More

Turner Trading

APB Website

APB on Instagram

APB on Facebook

APB on YouTube

Join the Professional Builders Secrets Facebook group for builders & connect with professional builders world-wide.

Phil Turner:

I found the process of managing a business really not natural. 

Phil Turner:

But some people, it doesn't matter what you do, you're just going to be stuck with a monster. 

Phil Turner:

We don't want to be doing this for free. We need to be making money; we're in business. 

Phil Turner:

You can be in a job and enjoy it, but not love it. 

Phil Turner:

You've got to know where you stand with your competitors.

Phil Turner:

You've got to be transformable. 

Phil Turner:

If you've got that attitude, you really can achieve anything.

Bosco Anthony:

Hello, and welcome to the Professional Builders Secrets Podcast, a podcast by the Association of Professional Builders (APB) for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company, from sales processes to financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builders Secrets Podcast. I'm joined today by Phil Turner, Managing Director of Turner Trading in Tasmania. Phil, welcome.

Phil Turner:

Thanks, mate. It’s good to be here.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, nice to have you. I'm really excited to speak to someone from Tasmania; it's on my list of places to go. Phil, tell us a little bit about Turner Trading. What do you specialise in and how did you get here?

Phil Turner:

Turner Trading, first and foremost, is a family business, so it's me as a director, I have my son Aidan who's on the tools, and my daughter's also back of house, so she does the office, keeps me in order and check. So, that's where we're at there. But I guess in terms of what we specialise in, we're custom builders. Because of my training, it gives us a little opportunity in two areas, firstly architectural, so we do work predominantly with architects. A lot of builders do architectural work, but I was fortunate in my training where my boss at that time had us work with architects and alongside architects through the whole process of the job. So I was groomed, if you like, in that, so I don't see that as an unusual experience. 

Phil Turner:

That gives us a little bit of an edge sometimes, depending on the project. We also do heritage work, and there's a lot of opportunity here in Tasmania with heritage work, but it's not like in Brisbane, where I'm from. They just don't have the funding for it at that scale. Down here in Tasmania, predominantly we're custom builders, architectural. That leads a little bit into where I came from and how we got here. 

Phil Turner:

Back in the day, I was in college in New South Wales, and there was an opportunity to join a pre-vocational course up in Brisbane. I had thought before that I'd probably be an engineer, building bridges and things like that. But as things worked out, that didn't happen.

Phil Turner:

I saw this pre-vocational course, and I was good with my hands and I’d always had an interest in carpentry. So I did this course, and there just were not a lot of jobs going in Brisbane. A fellow came to TAFE [Technical and Further Education] at the end of that course looking for apprentices, which was unusual at the time. I went and did some work for them, and I was very lucky to get the job. Apparently the other young fellow who applied for the job was slightly better than me, but they were just too scared to say no to me because I was that keen that I was just hanging around them like a bad smell. But they gave me the opportunity, and they were boat builders traditionally, who got into heritage work. So it's very unusual, but it just meant hands-on, and building those traditional skills.

Phil Turner:

So, that's where I come from in terms of training. But I often bang on about your training, and it being a representation of how you got to here or wherever you're at, always giving kudos to that because I think that's lacking these days, just to acknowledge that you didn't get here by accident. A lot of people have contributed to that, and in my case that is so true; I've been very lucky to get the training. So, that's our commitment now, to train apprentices. I think we're now onto our 25th or 26th apprentice.

Bosco Anthony:

Wow.

Phil Turner:

We're only a small operation, so we've had a couple on the go all the time. I just want to pass that training on and put some good chippies [carpenters] out there.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, it's definitely a noble legacy to keep and sustain, especially at a time when there's a shortage of skilled trade workers out there. It's interesting that you talk about leaving a legacy as well, which we'll tap into because you've also talked about your family, and I want to talk to you about how you got your family involved into this. But for now, let's take a trip back down memory lane. Tell me a little bit about your purpose. Do you consider yourself an accidental builder? Do you consider that this was the purpose that you walked into; did you choose it? Tell me a little bit about how you made this your purpose today.

Phil Turner:

That's a really interesting question. I guess when I was really young, I was the same as everyone else when they're young, asking, "What am I going to be when I grow up?" Building wasn't on my radar as the first option. I love cooking; I've always been passionate about that. But I worked in a restaurant when I was young, and that cured that very fast. Architecture was also in there, as I was always interested in buildings and construction. But like I said, at one stage I was interested in engineering; I think that was a pipe dream really. But no, I don't think building was ever something I envisaged and thought I would have as a career. But we're talking very young anyway, as I started my carpentry apprenticeship a little late.

Phil Turner:

A lot of fellows start in their teens or late teens; I was 20, 21 when I started that course. CNF001 it was called, it was a pre-vocational course in Brisbane. I don't think I thought I would be a carpenter or a builder as such. But as for running a business, I can probably speak to that more. I come from a family where one way or another we have always been in business and run our own businesses. So, I guess that's in the blood. So when I did the carpentry course, I just absolutely loved the skill side of it, the carpentry. I fell in love with carpentry. I think it's a wonderful trade, and particularly, I was very lucky again doing the heritage work. It's not ‘throw them up construction’; it's very interesting. You're learning old rules and old, old skills, and in terms of symmetry, getting the balance right.

Phil Turner:

So, there's a lot of aesthetic involvement and ergonomics as well in the old ways, and just really basic stuff, and where it comes from; it's all in there, along with why we do things the way we do today, and why we've moved on from those things. Does that answer your question?

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating, because in a world where we're also losing so much of our heritage it's amazing to find someone who's actually started, and looking at taking those lessons, and then enhancing it even more in the future. There's a lot of perspectives that come with your craft and work as well. I'm just curious, when you look back now, what were some of the most memorable mistakes that you made when you first got started, that you always remember and potentially define your career in many ways? Because many builders will have those classical entities that they'll remember, especially if it's a mistake.

Phil Turner:

Well, that's a really interesting question. I won't say outright my mistakes have defined me, but there are so many to list.

Bosco Anthony:

You're in safe company Phil; you're in safe company.

Phil Turner:

I'd like to talk about how I moved forward from those mistakes, but look, when you're young, you're new in business, you're dealing with all this money. I said I come from a family of running businesses, but I didn't necessarily define that as successful all the time. My father and others certainly had their challenges and battles. So you know, I found the process of managing a business really not natural. I guess it's the same for everyone in that sense, but some people do it more easily than others. I'm not one of those people; there are things I do really well and there are things I don't do well. So in terms of mistakes, there are so many. But certainly, time management was not a strong point. Certainly a strong point is on the tools because that's how you're trained, with systems and management.

Phil Turner:

But as we all know, it's the management of the business that is the motor, and that's where I really lacked a lot of skills. So, a lot of mistakes were made there with time management, money management, people management and clearly defined goals. There were key times where certain things happened and we worked for some really difficult clients, and there's a mistake right there. I think on that subject, you have the opportunity. Sometimes your gut tells you, "This is not a good option," and you just have to have the courage to say no. That's a mistake in itself when you can't do that. I was a bit of a yes man in that sense. So, learning to say no has been part of the journey.

Phil Turner: 

That is interesting, because moving forward you think it's important to say yes, don't you? So, I made lots of mistakes. But a key one, where things really came ahead for us was the old saying, “too big, too quick.” There was a boom in southeast Queensland, in fact most of Queensland at the time back in 2000 on really, from the introduction of GST [goods and services tax] right through to about 2008. They were just boom times. I think some of the statements said there were 5,000 people, either a week or a month moving to southeast Queensland from Victoria and Sydney. So, work wasn't a problem; we had lots of work, so we expanded very rapidly. But without that skillset that I mentioned before, we were doomed.

Phil Turner:

We had a business failure in 2000 and in 2019 we went into voluntary administration. That's my greatest accumulation of mistakes to date, and you have a choice right there. Do you sulk, which I did for a week, or do you get back up, dust yourself off, move forward and learn from it? So, that really defines us from that date, 2019, because that takes a fair while to go through that process, and it’s not pleasant. But we wanted to maintain a level of integrity, which is always difficult when you're in that situation, and we wanted to pay people. So we sold up, and paid people, and moved down to Tasmania. We were actually travelling for a while, and then moved down to Tasmania, and started all over again.

Phil Turner:

We didn't think that's what we'd do; we thought we'd go back to Brisbane. I had a good base there still, a reasonable reputation given the circumstances, because we did our best to make sure we did the right thing there. But in the end, Tasmania got us, and it's a wonderful place, and first of all, it's been a great healing place for us after going through that experience. We’ve also been able to move forward, and grow, learn new things and then learn from that.

Bosco Anthony:

Great.

Phil Turner:

So, yeah. That's the accumulation right there.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, I'm going to definitely dig a little deeper about the transformation and the key struggles and how you changed it. But let's talk about difficult clients. If you could think of one key difficult client, what did they teach you, and for our listeners out there, how do you avoid getting more of those difficult clients?

Phil Turner:

There's a bit to that I think. But in a nutshell, if you're marketing yourself correctly, you've got your feelers out there and you're getting enough leads or people coming in, you're in a position where you can pick and choose. Firstly, if you're in that position where you can pick and choose, it helps with being able to discern better. Whereas if you're in a position where you really need work, perhaps you haven't planned well and made good use of the good times and got everything in order. So if you're not exposed as much in the way you want to be, and you're not getting enough leads or client base coming in and wanting work, then it's very difficult to pick and choose because you're dependent on the work.

Phil Turner:

So, that's probably first and foremost, and that's something I've learnt from APB. I'd really like to go into how they changed my thinking on marketing, if there's an opportunity to do that in this conversation. But for me historically, I can tell you it'd have to be almost all the time, my gut told me, "No, this is not the right client for you." There was just something I felt. I ignored it, and a big mistake for me that was consistent when I was young is I didn't listen to my wife. My wife has not been in our business in terms of an operational sense, but she's certainly always been aware, and has my best interests at heart. For nearly every account she'd say, "Why are you doing that job?" or "Why are you working for them?" And she was right.

Phil Turner:

Listening to your gut, listening to your wife or partner is important; I think there are things that you'll know. But doing your homework a little bit more on people is also important. In the business world you think, “Oh, people have got to do their homework on you, and you've got to convince them.” It's a little bit the other way around too, you've got to make sure they're the right client for you; you've got to make sure they're the right client for your team. I don't want my kids exposed to a difficult person unnecessarily. Some people can become difficult, and that could be as much something we've got to work on, effective communication et cetera. But there can be a lot done to avoid that happening. But with some people, it doesn't matter what you do, you're just going to be stuck with a monster.

Bosco Anthony:

Let's get into the APB conversation, because I think there's a lot of curiosity here that I have. So, what were some of the key struggles? Obviously you talked about moving to Tasmania, and I’m assuming that you started the APB Private Mentoring program when you were in Tasmania. Is that correct?

Phil Turner:

Yeah, yeah. I think we've only been going with the program less than 12 months.

Bosco Anthony:

Oh, wow.

Phil Turner:

Yeah, yeah. We've not been with them a long time. But part of the reason why I agreed to this podcast is we have made such noticeable improvements. You've always got to take time to measure improvements, so it is early days. But I've been doing this long enough to know what I've been looking for in terms of change, and these things are definitely happening. The checks and measures that are in place to make sure that they're happening are coming up with really positive results. With this sort of thing you always get that feeling that you should never trust a lab, because you get people paid to respond. My position's really genuine, and I've always offered to Dennis, our coach, that I’d really like to talk about this stuff.

Phil Turner:

It has made a tremendous difference to us here. I think I speak for the home team, and we're not a big team, but it has impacted everyone in a very positive way. Our more senior staff, if you like, are commenting on the change in me, and the confidence that I have, and how I've let go, I'm delegating better. I find that really interesting.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, that's really fascinating to hear you say that as well. Okay, so take me through your mindset. What were some of your challenges? You've talked a little bit about marketing and financials. What were some of the things that have changed and transformed because of the mentoring program?

Phil Turner:

I'd actually noticed APB flagging for a while in different advertisements, mainly on social media, which I'm on a bit. I looked at it and thought, "Oh, you know what? Is that the right choice for me?" The reason I was looking was I've never really felt like I've hit the mark. Profitability's never been where I've wanted it to be. I think I've had a lot of knowledge across the industry, across running a business. I had a lot of bits of information, but I didn't have the right connection or flow of that knowledge. So it wasn't all connected, it wasn't operating well, the motor wasn't working well. So, I thought, "I need something; I need to bite the bullet here.”

Phil Turner:

I've been doing this way too long to not have parameters that I could recognise as successful. This is working, this is the way I want it to operate, and that's right across the board. First of all, obviously, financially, hitting financial goals and being able to say, "Look, we are profitable." That's a big thing for me. I expect for most businesses that might be 101: do trade, be disciplined, get a good result. But that has not been how I would define my experience at all; it's been really difficult. So we decided to go with APB, and from the get-go they really simplified a lot of things. I think at times I've looked at something and got all anxious about it because it's quite complex.

Phil Turner:

Perhaps there's a lot involved in it, or it takes a lot of work. Given that I'd been doing this career for a long time, this is going to take a lot more energy, having APB, and Dennis, who's our mentor. Having them in the background has just been a real encouragement to me, in that I feel supported in the learning process. So, it takes that difficulty out of the way, and for me it's been encouraging having someone there.

Bosco Anthony:

So, tell me about your relationship with Dennis. Obviously there comes a hesitance when you try something new for the first time, or you start a coaching program with someone. When did it click that this is actually working for you?

Phil Turner:

It clicked early. Dennis was able to identify early what some of our issues have been. Here's a simple example: he needed a clear picture of our figures: where are we at, what are we turning over, the size of our team and where's our bottom line? But something in there that came up was when he discussed what are our fixed costs, our overheads. He talked about this figure of it being fairly consistently in the industry around the 14, 15% mark. We were popped up there, way above there. He took a look at our figures and said, "Mate,” this is almost embarrassing, "you've got your staff, your tradies coming into your fixed overheads." And I said, "That can't be the case." 

Phil Turner:

So, once they were removed from that and put where they should be, the cost of doing business in the sense of the job, and it's calculated in-job, we were operating at about that 14%. That was just identifying something so simple that was a hangover from a bookkeeper we kept who just wasn't doing things correctly. I didn't pick up on it; I just missed it. Now we're actually not looking so bad. There's actually room to move there. You can make all the money in the world but if you're spending it all, and you're too top-heavy in that sense, and you've got too many assets that you're tending to, you're going to go under. But, we just had something in the wrong spot.

Phil Turner:

He spotted it straight away. He just looked at it and said, "Mate, that can't be there," and it was rather obvious. That's why I say it's a little bit embarrassing. But you've got to take that on the chin, because this is what they're good at. He asked, “Right now, straight away, what's your turnover, what are you looking at there?” So, we clarified some goals early, and this is a key theme. Some of the goals were focusing not just on turnover, because it's not necessarily the secret to turn over more. But for us, we needed to turn over a certain figure, and we set that goal that within 12 months we'd like to turn over this particular figure. Also then, we were getting a true representation on the go of how you're looking from a profitability perspective.

Phil Turner:

So, we set a goal, we put wheels in motion. There was a lot of stuff happening in the background that Dennis was helping us with, working on the business and the organisational culture as well, and clearly defining roles and making sure what our values are. It's a positive workspace for people, so that they are able to do their jobs. So, that is all happening in the background. And within a very short space of time, I'm still doing a double take on these figures, but we're not just hitting that mark, we're well exceeding our expectations and our goals.

Bosco Anthony:

So Phil, tell me how did the APB Private Mentoring program really impact your business financially, and how did you transform the business?

Phil Turner:

Dennis was able to help us first of all get a basic understanding, break things down into simple components so that I understood what he was doing. Just some of the language, like the work in progress, the WIPAA (Work in Progress Accounting Adjustment). I thought I had a grasp on that, but I did not at all. He just broke things down first of all and explained the general language and also specific language with finance and financial documents.

Bosco Anthony:

So, take me through the process. Dennis talked to you a little bit about the systems. How did you transform the business?

Phil Turner:

Initially, we identified that we needed to look at a few things, appropriate growth or expansion. We were probably not turning over enough. I say that with a lot of caution; it wasn't like this massive expansion approach because we all know where that can end up. But we needed a strategic approach to just understanding that for those goals that we set, the financial goals, it meant that we'd need to be running a certain number of projects at a particular value. That's helped us in different ways, including to identify jobs that we would accept and not accept because we need that kind of value in there to turn over. So, that was the first thing, when we started saying, “Well look, doing one at a time, that’s not going to meet it."

Phil Turner:

We needed to put ourselves in a position with our current staff. We knew at the time we had another staff member coming on board, another carpenter. We were able to just set a simple goal and realise that we needed to be more systematic with our starts in our projects, being more systematic and having a follow on with our scheduling, where we're able to immediately turn over a certain value. That actually kicked in straight away. It was actually really fluid, whereas I thought that was going to be really difficult. But it was a lot more fluid than I expected; we just went straight into it. We obviously already had the work there in the background, but I had my usual approach, as I mentioned before that I've had negative experiences with too big too quick.

Phil Turner:

I've probably got a bit of a hangover from that, and not wanting to, but we were nurtured. Dennis was great in saying, "Hey, look, this is okay, you need to do this." You can't have immediate results. But in the first quarter when we did reviews, we were reviewing all the way along. So, it wasn't like we were guessing. But when it came in and we kicked that goal, bills were paid, that was a big one for me. I believe a lot of builders can identify with this. If you've got drawers coming in, and certain components of those drawers are already paid, or they might be due, usually you'd just hang in. Well, I have been hanging in there for the drawer.

Bosco Anthony:

Yep.

Phil Turner:

The bills are paid, so that's helped us do lots of things: forecast our expenditure, get our cashflow accurate so we can say, "Look, we've got this drawer coming in." So, back to the schedule, "This is our schedule, this is when the money's going to fall, this is when things are going to be due." To be ahead of the game for the first time across the board is what I'm saying here, I'm obviously up and down in my experience. But this is across the board, being on top of it financially, and having confidence to know, "Okay, we've got that paid. This is what we've got coming in, we know we've got these expenses in the background, and we've still got money in the bank.” If I'm not mistaken, all things considered, that's a pretty positive position to be in.

Phil Turner:

And it's been consistent. It's almost like we just had to plug this in; I can't believe it. I wish I had done this 20 years ago. I actually made this comment to Dennis, "Damn, I wish this was compulsory." I know that may sound ridiculous, but I really believe that the benefit I've received from it has been huge. Like I said, I wish I’d had 20 plus years of doing this. “Old head, young child,” is that the saying? I think knowing what I know now, I would not have stepped forward in business without this kind of mentoring. I really think it's necessary.

Bosco Anthony:

It's interesting, because I was actually going to ask you that question. Had you known then what you know now, would you have changed or what are the things that you’d change? But you've answered that question for me.

Phil Turner:

Absolutely.

Bosco Anthony:

Of all the APB systems and everything that you've taken into action, what is the one thing that was a game changer, that set the tone for the rest of the year for you, through the programming and everything else? You talked a little bit about the fact that Dennis fixed something up in the accounting, and that was an observation, and you were thinking, "Okay, that's a start." But what was the game changing moment for you where you were thinking you were onto something?

Phil Turner:

It was when those figures came back in. The coach doesn't help you set a goal, because it's us who set the goal, not APB. We set the goal; we wanted it to be reachable but just slightly up there. So when we were getting the figures back in, and did the reviews with Dennis, and we were looking at it, we were getting there before he was even reviewing it. We're looking at it saying, "This can't be." I was in a position of disbelief. I was thinking, "No, it can't be that..." I don't think ‘easy’ is the right word, but that ‘simple’. It can't be that simple. My experience has been that we we're just missing a clear understanding. There were a couple of little things we didn't know, or we were doing incorrectly.

Phil Turner:

But certainly, it's all around the financial management for me. That's clear; you can set whatever goals you want; you can talk about all sorts of things. But if the money's not right, or your understanding of running a business financially isn't clear and understood, even though I've been doing it so long, the old saying, “flying by the seat of your pants,” you can only do that so long, from my experience, before you get into trouble. Obviously, I've learnt enough to work just outside of that. But there was so much, the motive was that if it's an eight-cylinder motor, we were running on four.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah.

Phil Turner:

Dennis just helped us, I don't know if ‘synergy’ is the right word, but he helped us connect these understandings that I had, and the bits that were missing – the misunderstandings or the lack of knowledge. And again, it's all around that financial management and planning and understanding. I thought the work in progress was done annually. My accountant would usually ask me, as at 30th of June, "What's your work in progress?" I'd have a look at invoicing in July, have a look at work we had on at the time, and expenditure, and I'd come up with this figure and just say, "Well, that's our work in progress." That's so not right, and to know that that can be done consistently throughout the financial year and should be done consistently throughout the financial year is, again, a game changer.

Phil Turner:

It helps you get accurate figures of where you are actually at, and not just from a cash flow forecast in terms of creating this balloon picture. But targeting things like, "Well okay, we're going to have tax coming in," and having a clear understanding of what work in progress you've got at certain times, just giving you a clearer picture. Again, that's the significant thing for us, just a clearer understanding of our financial systems, and changing those, but also cash flow forecasting. We're only really just getting into that, but like I said, I've obviously got some understanding of these things. So with this new knowledge, or this connection that I talk about that Dennis has really helped us with, it's just making the whole motor starts to function. And we're not coughing and spluttering as much, that's for sure.

Bosco Anthony:

Speaking of future planning, are you in the process right now of adopting new software, potentially focusing on new leads? Or is that something that's on the horizon for you, and what are you looking forward to right now, taking the business forward?

Phil Turner:

We put the cart before the horse there a little bit, in that we had the software in place. So, we've been using some software. I presume it's okay for me to mention the software?

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, absolutely.

Phil Turner:

For our estimating, we use SoloAssist for our quoting and estimating, and that's a program that's been put together by both a friend of mine and someone who I've worked with in the industry. So, it's been developed by a builder, and it's very fluid. From a quoting point of view, I'm about to put a big one in here that Dennis helped us with. In terms of using that software, I won't say I was all over it because I constantly talked to the principal of that business, and he said, "Mate, you're running on about 17%. Dive into this software and use it," which we're starting to do, and use what's available to us. Also, we use Buildertrend for our daily management, our project management, our scheduling. So we had that stuff in place, but you can appreciate my frustration.

Phil Turner:

We had this really awesome software, we’d been in business for some time, but something was missing. When other people tell you about their business, it's always exciting, or sometimes it's difficult. But when you get those exciting stories, the grass is always greener and you're not getting the full picture necessarily. But you do scratch your head and think, "Man, how can they be there and I'm here?" Just seeing that all come together, APB, that information and that knowledge has helped us tie that together. But one thing we identified early in that financial assessment was when we were looking at our margins. So we're, again, in a custom field, custom builds and architectural.

Phil Turner:

I was thinking, “I'm running a particular margin and that's where it's at.” We were way off where we needed to be; we needed to increase our margins. When we looked at our fixed costs and we were looking at where jobs were coming in financially, money in, money out, we were able to identify fairly quickly that our margin wasn't where it needed to be. We do intend to push that up a little bit. Again, we've got that reputation, we're in that field, we don't want to ever over-charge our clients. But you need to be making money, and we identified early that there was an issue there. So we pushed it up a bit, stage one of two. I don't believe you can just jump to this magical figure; we wouldn't have any work.

Phil Turner:

But we certainly pushed it up. We get a constant stream of work from a particular architect, and we're constantly checking those figures with them. We're consistent, and here's the thing, we are still just below one of our biggest competitors. So, we've got room to grow there, and hit these targets. So that's a big one. Like a lot of builders, we're all sensitive when it comes to margins. We want it to be right, we don't want to be doing this for free. 

Phil Turner:

We need to be making money; we're in business. But you feel like you've got this pressure that you cannot be above this figure, whatever that is for each individual and the area they're in. But the truth of the matter is, with understanding your marketing, so your brand strategy, your marketing, all of the guts of the business, if you're able to get more leads in you're able to pick and choose your clients.

Phil Turner:

Firstly, you can identify the client who's right for you, and the job that's right for you. So you're able to pick and choose a little bit, well, a lot more, and this is the thing that got me. I said to Dennis, "You know, when I talk to someone I win over 90% of my jobs," thinking that that was a good thing. Dennis's response was that, not less than encouraging, but pretty much, "Well, that's not a good thing," because it can't be that everyone's right for us. We’ve changed some little things like that; some have been major things, but some little things have made me think, "You know what? I've been patting myself on the back saying, 'You know, I'm winning all this work,' but shooting us in the foot because that job was probably not profitable from the outset, or potentially profitable from the outset.”

Phil Turner:

I just thought, "Yeah, well look at me, I've won this," to myself, and pat myself on the back and think, “You know, I'm really good at this." Well no, I'm not. So, there's been a lot of eye openers where particularly, I just couldn't understand. I said, "Oh look Dennis, marketing, I've got this in the bag. I probably don't need help with that." And he encouraged me very softly to look at it differently, and boy was I wrong. I so don't have a clear understanding. I mean, just being able to delineate between marketing and advertising, brand, brand strategy, and behind that having a good look at what your values are, they've also helped us put that together.

Phil Turner:

The good thing is, I was able to pass that over to my son. It's no good me handing a business over to him and saying, "Mate, this is what we are about." I passed the buck in that sense to him and said, "What are we about? What are our values, what are the key things?" We've come up with some things, we've changed it since, so it's been an evolution. 

Phil Turner:

We’re aiming for excellence, challenging ourselves to do better, to learn, all of us, myself absolutely included, first and foremost in that learning. Also under that learning is mentoring. I have a mentoring role; I said before we're committed to apprentices, and learning personally, and encouraging that for everyone. You can be in a job and enjoy it but not love it. But if you're learning and you're moving forward, you're going to stick around, you're going to want to be a part of this.

Bosco Anthony:

Mm-hmm.

Phil Turner:

And we've got a commitment. This is something that Aidan worked on that was encouraged. What are the best outcomes for our clients? We want that for our clients. Quality's one of those words, it's a dirty word in the building industry. But I actually believe it's time to bring it back, really understand what that means. People want things to be done really well, and to know that when they've got their back turned you're going to make sure that's right. Something might be hidden behind a frame. Hidden's the word that's got to be eradicated; it's got to be right. There also has to be a commitment to clear communication and these relationships. Relationship's a key one for us, right in that whole family business thing.

Phil Turner:

If we're not about relationships, what are we doing this for? As I said, not a lot of money. Just this openness, this transparency and this frankness. We're saying they're our values, they're things that we want to move forward. We're getting an understanding of what we look like and what our avatar is.

Bosco Anthony:

Yep.

Phil Turner:

We're obviously getting a bit of help around this stuff. Apparently, this is common language!

Bosco Anthony:

Well, there's a sense of excitement that I can get from how passionately you're talking about the mentoring program. There's a sense of rejuvenation from just how you're expressing everything. For our listeners out there who aren't fortunate to have a mentor, or are considering jumping into a mentoring program, what advice do you have for them? Because it sounds like you've gone through an entire mindset change and shift, and your values have really been articulated to have that curiosity for mentoring. What advice do you have for someone who is considering becoming a member, or who’s looking to work with one of the coaches as well?

Phil Turner:

The advice would be to different people at different stages. If you're young and in the trade, depending on what level of mentoring you choose, it could be viewed as an expensive process. I actually believe that that's the wrong way of looking at it. It costs money. You've got a team of people working for you in the background here, so someone's got to pay for that. 

Phil Turner:

I'm careful to use this word, but I will use it, I think it's essential for young players who are getting into the trade. It is changing so rapidly. See, I've had a failure, a business failure historically, and that taught me that I have first of all a responsibility. I thought I understood that; now I have a clear understanding that I have a responsibility to my clients, I absolutely have a responsibility to the people who work with me and for me in that sense, and I understand what that means now.

Phil Turner:

You've got to lower the risk, you've got to mitigate, you've got to manage the risk. How can you do that when you're a new player, when you're fresh? We all thought back in the day if you were a good chippie, that's all you had to be. As I mentioned before, I was very fortunate to get this highly skilled training. I was very fortunate, blessed, whatever words you want to use, so I'm open to it all. That's why I said identify how you got to here. But the secret behind all of that is, you've got to understand it, you've got to be transformable, you've got to be teachable from the outset. If you've got that attitude, you really can achieve anything. It's taken me 20 years, and I don't say this easily.

Phil Turner:

From the outset, knowing what I know now, this is why we’ve set up training for Aidan, my son, and my daughter Jordan, who as I mentioned before is doing the book work and being trained in accounting. Aidan is being trained in managing the projects now, so project management, and that’s ongoing. But he is running projects with me. These guys are involved in that coaching. So, in a sense it’s not financially coming out of their pocket, but it is in terms of they’re part of the business. So, I would not proceed forward for their sake, these young players, I would make sure. So if I’m a young player looking at getting into the building industry, find a way to afford this. You can afford the new drop-saw, you can afford new tools. We find a way, we always do; we work hard.

Phil Turner:

But I'm saying, as a tool in your kit, it's like taking a re-look at safety; safety's one of the tools in your toolkit. You can't operate without this tool now. We used to wing it, but we can't wing it, it's got to be managed. I'm saying that this mentoring is an essential tool in your toolkit, particularly if you're a young player. If you've been operating for a while, or like in my case years, and it's just not connecting, it should be easier than this. It should be simpler than this and it should work. Well, that just means you've got either a misunderstanding or it's just not connecting, I use that word. And you just might need someone else to have an objective perspective outside of you, because we get quite emotionally involved.

Phil Turner:

This is our baby, this business. But it can be frustrating. You know, I've always said to myself, "The day I can actually say that I've turned a decent profit, I think I'll go sit down in a paddock with a six pack of Bud Lights and have a good old cry,” because you're emotionally attached, and we don't want that much. We just want to make sure that people are looked after, the people who work with us and who employ us, they're getting good value. But you want to turn a profit. It just makes the whole thing work. The joy that comes out of that, I can't tell you. So if you've been in the game, and you're looking at mentoring as an option, for me it has made all the difference.

Phil Turner:

But it's holistic, it's not just like, "Oh, we've got all the answers." They have encouraged us to look at other things: we are looking at this software that we're using, and using it further, and having it part of this big picture. We're getting help with marketing; APB has a lot of knowledge there. But we've got another company that's helping us there with our brand strategy, and I'm really thankful for that. So, it's a holistic approach to running a building business, and understanding that there are a lot of tools available, but you have to have that basic knowledge. You have to break it down, simplify it and then from the building blocks build it back up again. I think every chippie can understand that.

Bosco Anthony:

You talk about building a legacy with a family business.

Phil Turner:

Mm-hmm.

Bosco Anthony:

And that's something that you want to leave your kids with, this gift that has the leg room to grow even further. What goes into creating that legacy, and at what point of your career did you decide to go down this path, to create something for your kids?

Phil Turner:

Jules and I have got four kids, and when they go out into the world, and they are setting their own careers, that's not an easy space; it's not an easy place. Kids tend to move on from their hometown, or sometimes they stay, like my son Aidan has. Well, when I say hometown, we're originally from Queensland so our older kids have moved back there. But Jordan's still an integral part of our business, and we won't do business without her. Like I said, she's dealing with the bookwork, she's dealing with learning the accounting with an accountant overseeing her. But she’s taking on so much more; she's really excited about the opportunity that she has.

Phil Turner:

So in other words, she's able to look at this business and say, "Hang on, this is as good as I want it to be." She's really getting that understanding, which is exactly what I've wanted. I don't want it to be, "Okay guys, today we're going to do this," that's all me. I want them to realise the potential and the opportunity that's before them from a career point of view, an ongoing, a life point of view. But also on a day-to-day basis, these kids can set their own goals. Nothing's more exciting than that for me now, because in training that's exactly what we want. We want to empower people to be able to do their thing, and to realise that that looks like whatever they want it to look like.

Phil Turner:

So, that's exciting for me. Before the mentoring I would say I was exhausted, I've now actually earnt back all this time. I was running entirely inefficiently, really, is the truth of it. But what I was doing before, let me say that I can do it in a very short period of time now. But also, having time to work on the business, that's giving me time to think about these things. What is it we're handing over here for the kids? Is it a business struggling, that's got the legacy of Dad not getting it together? That'll only hold them back. I want them to realise that first of all you've got to be teachable, you've got to be transformable, you've got to be able to move forward. They need to identify that in themselves, because let's face the facts, it's only an idea.

Phil Turner:

When you’re running a business, you come up with this idea of what you think it looks like. Well, once they get that picture in their heads and what that looks like for them, the motor's already running. If you've given them this guidance, they've had this mentoring and this direction, the rest is history I reckon. I'm really excited about that.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, and the advice I guess for the listeners out there who potentially have family members out there, it's to create a teachable mindset.

Phil Turner:

Absolutely.

Bosco Anthony:

And then allow everyone from the top up, because you talked about the fact that you have to change your values.

Phil Turner:

Absolutely.

Bosco Anthony:

And you have to incorporate mentoring as part of this as well, right?

Phil Turner:

Yeah.

Bosco Anthony:

Let's talk about in your area and what you specialise in, do you know the other builders? Builders can sometimes live in a very isolated world. So, how's your relationship with other builders, how do you stack up and compare with the other builders, and what do other builders say about your company today?

Phil Turner:

I do have feelers out there; I've been doing this long enough. You've got to know where you stand with your competitors. I don't think you should worry about your competitors, but you should first of all be able to identify who they are. But you're right in saying that the builders have almost a commandment, “Thou shalt not talk to each other.” It's a weird thing. I finished a job one afternoon, and went down to the pub, which I don't do often, but let's just go with it. All the boys are down there, and one guy comes up to us, and there’s a young fellow in our crew who's going out to do his own thing. Then this guy staggers out of the pub, full as a butcher's pup, and he staggers over to our young fellow and he says, "What are you doing, young fella?"

Phil Turner:

The young fellow says, "Oh, I'm moving on." The guy says, "And what are you going to do?" "I'm going to do my own thing." The guy says, "All you builders are the same." He says, "Youse are all stupid. If youse just learnt to work together and to communicate together, the world would be a different place." He said, "You're all reinventing the wheel, you're leaving a vacuum," and then staggered off into his car. We wet ourselves, because we don't know this bloke, but gee, he was dead right. It's a funny world. But I think that's changing, particularly with the access to podcasts, social media, all that now. You're able to at least learn and listen from others. But yes, I do know that in our world, we've got some really good competitors. I've been doing this, as I keep saying, for a while.

Phil Turner:

I'm not going to pull the old, "For 45 years…" because that doesn't work. But it’s long enough to know, and I've been scratching my head. How can this young player, who's been in the game 10 years, and he's leagues ahead of me in terms of the jobs, the leads he's getting, this profit figure that he clearly puts in his job, he's up there. Like I said, he's slightly above us. But he's all over it, and again, he's one of these young fellows, I know he received mentoring from day dot. He's also gone on, I believe, to do a business degree; he's always learning, moving forward. He has a very clear understanding of marketing and strategy there, and he's overtaken the industry down here. I'm scratching my head; how can he do that?

Phil Turner:

He doesn't have my experience, and I realise that that's not everything. You've got to have a clearer understanding of how people operate. When someone's looking for a job, how does my website, for example, answer some of their questions? But also as importantly, how does it deal with some of their fears? They're about to spend X, Y, Z, like I said, we're high-end, big money. They want to know they've got the right team. And he's able to communicate that really well. He's had mentoring, he's got it together, and he knows what he's doing. He has overtaken me. I've been in business well over 10 years, he's been in business I think 10 years, if that, and he's slicing off parts of the market.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah.

Phil Turner:

He just says, "I'll have that," and he's got it. So, I've got to learn something from that. I do know that our reputation out there is good. We're a solid player, people know that we're going to get the details right. That's a big thing for me, but also the feedback I'm getting, so not just from that dirty word that I say, from a quality point of view. But also in how we operate with our staff, because I said it can't be about relationships and you're a mongrel to work with. I have been that person, where I'm just so frustrated and upset that you project that onto other people. That's a horrible place to be; it's everything against our values. But I've been there, I've been that person, don't you worry. And again, you have a responsibility to get this right, get your act together.

Bosco Anthony:

It's really inspiring because most people get threatened by competitors. The fact that you look at your competitors and find learning opportunities is pretty humbling and inspiring. I feel I could talk to you for ages, but I'm going to wrap this up with a really important question. I was going to reverse it and say if you had a time machine that went back in time, what would you do differently, but you've answered that. But I'm curious, you said something that really stuck out to me, which is you've got some time back now.

Phil Turner:

Mm-hmm.

Bosco Anthony:

You're spending time on the business; you've got the legacy planning as well. If you had a time machine and projected where you're going, and it sounds like you're really excited about the journey ahead, what does future Phil tell you about the future and where do you see yourself in the coming years with the game plan that you're building right now, with the kids taking on the responsibility as well? Where do you see yourself in the next few years?

Phil Turner:

Well, there's a little bit of humour in this one. It has been said by my son many a time that once he takes over, I'm the first person he's going to sack. So, at least now I'm employable.

Bosco Anthony:

Maybe he can be the advisor at that point, maybe he can be the advisor.

Phil Turner:

Look, you can't replace experience. I tell you what, you can paint it different colours, as I said with one of my competitors. But you can't replace it, so I think the kids are always going to draw from that. My role will probably be oversight, overseeing rather in terms of when they're winning clients, and communicating. I love that part; I love talking to people clearly. And I think I'm always going to have a role, but my role as it is now, in the next five years, certainly 10 at most but we're thinking five years, I'm going to ease out of wearing nine hats. I'd like to just wear one or two, and the kids are going to be running this ship. I’ll have the confidence to know that they've got something to work with here; I'm not handing over a dirty motor.

Phil Turner:

It's been worked on, it's not fully refined, it's being tuned, but we're getting there. And that's given me a lot of confidence, it makes me smile thinking about the future. But I do see that the kids are going to be enabled. In my opinion, I don't think this is ever going to be a multinational, mate. We're going to stay at a certain size I guess, always having the opportunity to expand. But at least they will be making those decisions with confidence and knowledge – and the right kind of knowledge. And they’ll be able to identify, "Okay, well I don't do that, but this person can," and being in a position where they can employ that person, they've got the financial base to do so. That's another thing I've learnt, you've got to have the right people in the right roles.

Phil Turner:

Dennis has helped us identify all the individual roles in the company. It’s something I thought I had a grasp of as well, but I didn't. So, looking to the future, the kids are going to take this thing over. And I think they're going to have a wonderful business and crew of people to work with, because who wouldn't want to work for a company that's moving forward, pays well, and your personal experience while you're working for it is a positive one for your family?

Phil Turner:

I hate hearing people say, "I hate my job. I'm doing this; I'm just turning the wheels." It's a horrible thing; I know it's a reality, but it's a horrible thing. So, I think the kids are going to have the opportunity to employ people who can benefit from that positive experience. So, it will be a positive work experience for their own careers. You know, as I said, learning, excellent, it's that commitment.

Bosco Anthony:

Well Phil, it's been a pleasure jamming with you. I look forward to keeping up with your progress. We usually have guests back again, and I'd love to hear about your journey in the future as well, and perhaps we'll have your son or your daughter, or both of them in the future on the episodes.

Phil Turner:

Oh, they’d love that.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you so much for your time, and just the humility about the coaching mindset is just refreshing. I can sense the excitement, and I've had Dennis on the show as well. So, it's great to hear some amazing stories about you and Dennis.

Phil Turner:

Thanks Bosco; that's great. Yeah, cheers. Thanks for the opportunity.

Bosco Anthony:

Absolutely, mate. Chat soon.

Phil Turner:

Okay, see you.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems of APB can help you grow your building company, visit Associationofprofessionalbuilders.com. See you next time.