Episode 62: Relocating A Building Company With Max Peterson

In episode 62 of the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, we’re joined by Max Peterson, CEO and Managing Partner at Smith & Sons Remodeling North America. Throughout this episode, Max unpacks what it takes to relocate a building company overseas, the mindset needed and the lessons learned along the way.

 

Inside episode 62 you will discover

• What it takes to relocate a building company overseas
• The history and continual development of a franchise style building company
• How to rebuild a brand and reputation in any location
• Why ‘starting over’ can be an incredible opportunity
• How using hindsight leads to building a better future
• And much, much more.

 

Listen to the full episode to uncover the key learnings in relocating a building company and how to set it up for success for the future using specific systems.

 

Max Peterson - CEO and Managing Director at Smith & Sons Remodeling North America

 

Max entered the construction industry in 1989 as a carpentry apprentice. Fast forward to today and he is now the CEO and Managing Partner at Smith & Sons Remodeling Experts in Canada. Each year Max speaks to many contractors in Canada about the ins and outs of how building companies operate and the key takeaways which makes them high performing professionals to which he shares this information in his podcast Business For Builders.

Connect with Max

 

Timeline

1:27 About Max Peterson and his role at Smith & Sons

5:23 The humility in learning

15:53 Building a reputation in a new country

25:52 The key to successfully relocating a building company

35:22 Lessons learned in hindsight

 

Links, Resources & More

Smith & Sons Remodeling North America

APB Website

APB on Instagram

APB on Facebook

APB on YouTube

Join the Professional Builders Secrets Facebook group for builders & connect with professional builders world-wide.

Max Peterson:

A lot of us guys hang our identity on what it is that we do. 

Max Peterson:

I was in a position where I had to find my purpose. 

Max Peterson:

It wasn't possible for me to learn everything I needed to know by myself. 

Max Peterson:

You've then got to adapt. You've got to start taking on all of the things that are happening in this new ecosystem, this new culture, and only then can you begin to excel. 

Max Peterson:

The more you learn, the more you earn.

Max Peterson:

Dream big, start small, systemise the s**t out of everything, research financial principles and management, and understand business development.

Bosco Anthony:

We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. Joining us today is Max Peterson, CEO and Managing Partner for Smith and Sons in Canada. Max, how are you doing?

Max Peterson:

Good day, Bosco, from one Canadian to another, kind of.

Bosco Anthony:

I know, I know; they’ve got all the Canadians running these podcasts. Tell us a little bit about your origin story, my man, and how did you get started in the building industry?

Max Peterson:

I got started in the building industry because my old man said, "You're not smart enough to do grade 12 and I'm sick of paying private education fees, so you can go and learn a trade." So, I actually did that and spent about 15 years as a carpenter, did an apprenticeship in Brisbane, and then got a builder's licence, so that was all pretty cool.

Max Peterson:

I married a Canadian in 1995 and had six kids. In 2010, my wife’s father was my drywaller and my Gyprocker. Because my wife was born in the town I'm living in here in British Columbia, he come to me one day and decided he was going to ruin my life. He said, "I'm going to move back to Canada to retire." The mother/daughter thing was pretty tight, so after three years of arguing and making my wife cry, I gave up and here we are, so that's how I got into the industry and that's how I ended up in Canada.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, that's kind of ironic, because I was locked in Australia for a few years. I just got back to Canada a while back too. I came down in the fall and it was beautiful weather, and the day I left, it just started to rain in Vancouver, so sounds like that's the norm for Vancouver weather.

Max Peterson:

Yeah.

Bosco Anthony:

What's the type of building company you currently have with the relocation? How have you reinvented yourself here?

Max Peterson:

Yeah, I had moved fairly quickly. We'd talked about moving to Canada, and I woke up one morning in July and it was a Saturday morning, and I got to a point where my youngest child was about to finish elementary school or primary school, and I felt I was in a moment there where I had to get things turning if I was going to get her into high school, either in Australia or Canada.

Max Peterson:

By the time we closed down businesses and we jettisoned a bunch of assets, I think it was about seven months and I was sitting here in Canada. I didn't really put together the permanent residency application or even a work visa, so I was semi-retired for about two years. So, I had all that time to think. After spending 25 years in the building industry in Southeast Queensland, I had to figure out, "Well, what am I going to do?"

Max Peterson:

So, I had a lot of time. It was funny, because I think I had spent that much time working and being so busy, and then I got off the boat, metaphorically speaking, in Vancouver, and everything just came to a grinding stop. I had nothing to do, nobody to talk to effectively, no business, no nothing. What that did was prompt me to do a lot of soul searching. 

Max Peterson:

I often say that it was probably one of the darkest times of my life, because a lot of us guys hang our identity on what it is that we do. It was a moment in time where everyone was happy: my wife was happy, the kids saw snow for the first time, everything was humming along. But I was in a position where I had to find my purpose, because effectively it had been taken away from me. I think there might have been a lot of reservation, which is why I argued with my wife for three years and made her cry.

Max Peterson:

But then to get here and really dig down, I started to look around and think, "What are my options?" One of those options was the contact that I had in Smith and Sons back home. We made that contact and the rest is history. But there was a lot of waiting still to be done, because I couldn't work until I got my permanent residency sorted out, which literally took about two years. Dealing with Canadian immigration, bless their hearts, is unbelievably painful. If I ran my business the way that immigration runs their business, I would be out of business; I'm just saying.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, is it that old saying, an idle mind is the devil's workshop? I guess you really had to get in touch with who you were at that point. I relate, when I first moved to Australia, it took me a while before I got back into the workforce and, like you, I had to really find myself in many ways.

Bosco Anthony:

Tell me a little bit about when you look back at your illustrious career, what do you think was one of those challenges that you encountered when you first got into the building space, and how did you overcome it when you look back at everything you've done?

Max Peterson:

As I said, having spent 15 years as a carpenter, a lot of the motivation for me to go and get a builder's licence was because I was tired of the limitations and I was tired of having those limitations, and I was tired of dealing with people like supervisors. I’d just had a gut full. I’m very entrepreneurial by nature, and I felt I needed to have a crack at running my own business. So really, in the early days, running a carpentry type operation was fairly straightforward.

Max Peterson:

As a matter of fact, and this will resonate with some of your eastern seaboard builders in your audience, I actually approached GJ Gardner out of the blue, because I had got my builder's licence in May 2009. I thought, "You know what I'm really good at," and this is why I look back and I think what I'm doing today is very much in line with what my purpose is, because even back then I thought to myself, "I'm really good at knocking nails into wood and I don't mind talking to people, but beyond that, I really don't know a lot about running a large building company." And ‘large’ for me at that point would've been a million dollars a year.

Max Peterson:

I went and reached out and it was really above my pay grade for me to go and talk to a mob called GJ Gardner Homes. It was just out of control; it was just never going to happen. I highlighted within my understanding that I was very good at framing, finishing and all that sort of carpentry oriented stuff. But running a business and being a builder or general contractor was so off the radar that I needed to have that input. So, I ended up being a franchise operator with Smith and Sons. Soon after that, once I finished my tenure after leaving that group, I got in touch with Russ from APB [Association of Professional Builders], so now I guess I've known Russ for easily 10 years at some level. 

Max Peterson:

Some of the issues were just about self-awareness. I think a variable of success for us builders and general contractors is our level of self-awareness. It’s also our work ethic, it's also our creativity, but at that point, I think what set me up with a good foundation stone was that I understood how much I didn't know. It was at that point that – I don’t know how I found Russ, I couldn't tell you, maybe he can – but at that point it was super important for me to start to look at how I was going to get CRMs, how I was going to do estimating.

Max Peterson:

I just left the franchise part of my life and I was thinking, "Okay, so there were all these things that were set up for me there. Now I'm out by myself because I've chosen to go that way, how am I going to do that?" However I came across Russ, everything that he said just made sense to me, and it really has stuck with me for the longest time. It was a great moment in time for me. Lack of understanding of how to run a building company was my biggest vulnerability at that point, and I think builders have that to this day.

Bosco Anthony:

This was when Russ was part of the CoConstruct offering, I guess, in Australia as well when you met him?

Max Peterson:

Yeah, we utilised that. I talked to Russ about my own little website there about getting a source code where we could have a little video play and talk about CoConstruct and things like that. Interestingly enough, you can't get a CoConstruct subscription anymore, it's got to be Buildertrend. But nonetheless, that was where, for me, I think a challenge was to develop at pace and know that it wasn't possible for me to learn everything I needed to know by myself.

Max Peterson:

I already had a fairly good understanding of team mentoring and coaching, having had a little bit of a background in network marketing. Some of your audience may have no clue what that is, but I’d been involved with a company in the US starting with a big A, so I was already reading books and educating myself around self-development, so I thought, "Well, that's a business principle, it's a business fundamental that affects the human in a positive way. It doesn't matter what industry you're doing,” right?

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah.

Max Peterson:

Yeah, it was super exciting to jam with Russ in those early days and having had a CoConstruct foray, it was good.

Bosco Anthony:

So, you're in your groove and then you have to move out of love and family and everything else. Well, what's that like to think, "Hey, I've got to shut down and now go and hang out with the Canucks in a different country?" What was going through your mindset and was it easy for your family? Were they excited? Were you torn? What was your mindset going through it all?

Max Peterson:

I think the emotional gymnastics that happened were because I was very much committed to the happiness and wellbeing of my wife and family. That's first and foremost, but the contradictory nature of the human race is to think, "But I'm playing Australian rules football with the club that I've been playing with since I was eight years old. I'm racing go-carts at Ipswich Raceway. I'm doing all of these things and I'm 42 years of age and I'm looking for my midlife crisis and now I've got to go and move countries and restart in a new culture.”

Max Peterson:

I kept saying to my wife, "We don't need to do this. We're set up quite well. Life is good." And of course, being in the building industry since I was 16, at 42 years of age I had a wealth of contacts, I had a really good established routine and operation. So it scared the s**t out of me, there's no question. At 42, I had a wife and six kids who I was dragging to another country, and so I was thinking, "Gee, I’ve got to go and do all this over again." So, what was going through my mind is the fear of the unknown, for sure. Even though the Canadian culture and the Aussie culture, as you know, definitely have significant differences, there’s a pretty good overlap. If you're going to do it, do Australia to Canada or vice versa. It's pretty close.

Bosco Anthony:

That's true. The only thing about adjusting to the culture is the accents. For me, I find that Aussie accents shorten everything. It took me a while to figure out what Maccas [McDonald’s] was, and for you, you're the foreigner in Canada who has an accent too when you get there. How did you transition to the culture?

Max Peterson:

For me to succeed, I had to do this. I knew that I was going to immerse myself in the new culture, and this is the same in business. When folks get into APB, this is essentially what you’ve got to do; you've got to immerse yourself in the program. You've then got to adapt. You start taking on all of the things that are happening in this new ecosystem, this new culture, and only then can you begin to excel.

Max Peterson:

For me, coming into a new culture, I had to start talking a little bit slower and rounding words off and not say, "I'm going down the bottle-o [liquor store]” and “I'm going to stop at the servo [service station] to put some petrol in," because everyone's thinking, "What are you talking about?"

Bosco Anthony:

Tell me a little bit about the opportunity with Smith and Sons; how did that come about? It sounds like you had all these connections as well and you leveraged your relationships as well to get there.

Max Peterson:

In 2012, because Smith and Sons and GJ Gardner Homes are sort of brother brands or sister brands, we flew out to LA and we met Greg Gardner. He was stationed in Los Angeles at that time, and we flew up to Vancouver and we kicked some tyres back in 2012 whilst I was still with the Smith and Sons Group in Australia.

Max Peterson:

Then of course, after things transpired, I went about business on my own and then I decided to make a move here, so I just made a call back. I had a really strong relationship with the guys in corporate office in Brisbane. The fact that we had kicked the can down the road, essentially, meant I could just approach him. I fully didn't expect too much, but then they said, "Yeah, we're still keen to do it." I sent them an email and literally overnight we were on a Skype call and we proceeded. That was late 2015. And then by Christmas, we'd put a plan together as far as what our direction was going to be.

Max Peterson:

Then you want to start talking about kicking on in an industry in a new location. That's where I can start talking about how it doesn't matter what you're doing, whether you're running a building company or you're a franchise brand like Smith and Sons, what was a distinct disadvantage was that the brand wasn’t well known here. In Australia and New Zealand, the Smith and Sons brand, because of its affiliation with GJ Gardner Homes, is more straightforward, I think. It's a little bit simpler, whereas in Canada, people asked, “Smith and what, who? Do you manufacture guns?” “No mate, wrong brand.”

Max Peterson:

I had to make it work, Bosco, because I could go and build houses, but I was old. I was 42, 43 years of age. I was really excited about the opportunity. And then fast forward, and we had got a few guys in the Smithies group here and there’s a lot involved around establishing building companies and launching a franchise brand; it scares the s**t out of you. I think I mentioned to you offline there, we had one of our guys who was in the Okanagan Valley who relocated to Victoria, to the island. When Russ hit me up, that guy's situation came to mind immediately, because he didn't have a really significant network. I think you've got to have a really deep conviction that when you do make the move, you’re going to burn the boats.

Max Peterson:

When I moved to Canada, and we may cover this off later, but once I made that decision after three years, there was no going back. “I'm going to get to that beach and I'm going to torch the boats, because I don't have a backup plan. There is no real estate left for me. There is no business, there's nothing.” I needed to literally have a single focus on developing my business. We get caught up in the Hollywood side of it, or the way that we'd like it to be, and then all of a sudden, we get kicked in the a*** and all of a sudden, it's not. Well, now, that tests our personal resolve. So, I think it's a combination of the human systems, of course, and we'll get talking about that maybe later, but you as a person, you've got to have the resilience to be able to weather those storms.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, it sounds like your survival instincts also came out. Now, okay, you're in Canada, you've taken this time, you get your residency, you're ready to get cracking.

Max Peterson:

Yeah. 

Bosco Anthony:

What's that like now thinking, "Okay, I've got a clean slate. Here's my time; here's my moment to shine"? You're trying to build a reputation for yourself in a new country now. What are you going through at that point, and what was that like?

Max Peterson:

The level of disrespect for a professional journeyman carpenter, a qualified builder, absolutely infuriated me. Nobody took me seriously. And so, today, can you see that chip on my shoulder there, Bosco?

Bosco Anthony:

Just a little bit, yeah.

Max Peterson:

Yeah. I had family that would tell me that franchising won't work in the construction industry in Canada. Bless those souls. But I’ll tell you what, they're on the top of my hit list. So I had mixed emotions, and you're right, there is a survival instinct. I definitely run to a fight. It's part of my entrepreneurial DNA, my personality, I guess. It’s very intense, it’s very aggressive.

Max Peterson:

However, I would refer to myself as an introvert, to which people will just say, "You're full of bulls**t." Ultimately, I recharge very well by myself. I love sipping a whiskey and watching a documentary of World War II, that's what I find to recharge me, so it was intense. The disrespect was outstanding. 

Max Peterson:

Now, they build houses differently in this country, because they dig big holes under their houses, Bosco, and they call them basements that can fill full of water, which is hilarious, but it's like we've got to create that area where we can bring services in. I had no knowledge of how to build that, so I had to go and work for a guy to just get an understanding from a structural position, from a carpenter's position. So, I think when we talk about those emotions that run through, ego and humility have got to be in equal measures, because I can’t let my ego get in the way. As a matter of fact, when I first started, we had to rent a house, and the realtor knew that I had some skills and I actually did some work on the rental property that we lived in.

Max Peterson:

I did some drywall repairs and some painting and re-flooring, and he said, "You're all right. I can probably keep you busy." I remember installing a dishwasher for $20 an hour. As a 25-year construction veteran, I am eating dog food right now, because I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm happy to live under the radar. Everyone thinks I'm just a crazy immigrant, but I will have my day in the sun." But I had that commitment to evolving, adapting and excelling. I had to be patient, because there's only so much I could do, even as intense as what I was, to make it happen. That, to me, is the six inches between your ears; that's where the warfare happens a lot.

Bosco Anthony:

Did you have a lot of Tim Horton's coffee in the morning in those days?

Max Peterson:

Mate, to this day, I can literally count the number of coffees I've had on my two hands. I just don't drink coffee, mate. Either Monster or Red Bull; that is my liquid happiness. It doesn't matter what time of the year, that's my go-to. I like the donuts though.

Bosco Anthony:

I made a stop. I do miss the Timbits and the steeped teas from Tim Horton's, but it’s all right.

Max Peterson:

Oh, you're a veteran.

Bosco Anthony:

I am a veteran, yes, especially in the cold. So, you get started, you're growing the business, how do you take Smith and Sons in Canada to where it is today? Obviously, you transformed it and you’re at a really different place now. What was the key transformative point for you?

Max Peterson:

I will say this, it’s funny, my story with Smith and Sons was very polarising back in the day, back in Australia. It was a great opportunity and I really enjoyed my time there. But I did a lot of things; because of that experience and then because of the opportunity that I had with Smith and Sons, I was able to bring about a lot of change. I’ve got some great business partners, one of whom is Greg Gardner himself, the CEO in position there with Smith and Sons, Australia and New Zealand. They believed a lot in me. They gave me a lot of creative licence, but it was interesting that the things that had really upset me as an operator gave me empathy when I started to launch the business here. You just couldn’t predict that course of events or the level of understanding.

Max Peterson:

To be able to develop the business, we took a lot of what happened in the business back in, let’s say, around the 2010, 2012 mark, and when I launched the business here, there were some things that I did mention to the guys. I said, “We aren’t doing this and we aren’t doing that, and we’re going to do this and we’re going to do that.” I think that’s the evolution part of business, and kudos to those guys for giving me a little bit of creative licence and putting up with a bit of my intense bulls**t. But definitely, I think a lot of it is empathy, Bosco. I’ve got to empathise with myself, but then I’ve got to think, “How can I bring value? How can I demonstrate value and bring authentic value to general contractors in this neck of the woods, being Canada?”

Max Peterson:

The fundamentals and the value system that I’ve got on my conference room wall are the same ones that I would use in retail. I just think for builders, we have to think outside the box. We’ve got to move from the attitude that says ‘me,’ to ‘we.’ We've got to understand that none of us can be as smart as all of us. The collaborative nature of what I'm doing in Smith and Sons in Canada, in conjunction with head office in Australia, in conjunction with the five staff that I have in the office, in conjunction with new franchise general contractors or builders who come in, mate, it's such a big talent pool that I just think that's really what builders need and that's what APB offers as well. The reason I sit here today has a lot to do with the mindset change that I probably did pick up from Russ Stephens at APB.

Max Peterson:

There's no question. We had conversations and email trails backwards and forwards back in the early days when I hit the ground here originally. I just absolutely believe in raising the bar in the building industry across the board, re-engineering the experience for clients, yes. Delivering construction services at the higher level, yes, but also not taking away from the builders. We need to increase the professionalism. We need to understand that communication at the highest level is important, because it has a knock on effect in the way in how we demonstrate value to our clients and how we deal with our clients. What it comes down to is a different way that we look at how we develop a building company as such.

Bosco Anthony:

I really resonate with the creating value, because you could go to any part of the world and create value. For me, that really hit home, because I take a lot of my journey and think, "Where I am today is about creating value for the people."

Max Peterson:

But authentic value, Bosco.

Bosco Anthony:

Authentic value, yes.

Max Peterson:

Authentic value.

Bosco Anthony:

Yes.

Max Peterson:

Not just superficial bulls**t, "I'm going to do this, so I get what I want." Not that.

Bosco Anthony:

Yep.

Max Peterson:

Give, give, give, give.

Bosco Anthony:

So, what are your plans for the future? You look back now and say, "Wow, I've come quite a long way," and you've had all this change. I'm assuming you're adjusting to the cold weather, but what's the plan for the future?

Max Peterson:

I'm not adjusting to the cold weather. I go from home to a warm truck, to a warm office, to a warm truck, to maybe the pub, and then home. So I don't do snow, I don't do cold, I'm not adapting. That's one thing I'm not going to excel in.

Max Peterson:

We're a fledgling company, even though Smith and Sons has been around for 14 years this year. What we've got is a very different business model and a lot of that's to do with our experience, a lot of that's to do with me as the pioneer in that regard. I absolutely believe in re-engineering the client experience, but to enable that to happen, as a preface to that, we've actually got to reset the thought process of builders. You can’t have that sense of entitlement where clients should just pay you, because you’re a really good carpenter. We've got to change those little mindsets and just start to rethink how it is that we go about improving ourselves.

Max Peterson:

All of that education includes mindset marketing and management and mentoring, and then of course, business mastery. I think we undercook the fact that, as a general contractor, you did a four-year apprenticeship and then straight away you were making a little bit of money, because you were an apprentice. I just think the ongoing improvement is not proclaimed in amongst the industry. And if it is, it's very, very minor.

Max Peterson:

I'll go into a TikTok live here and answer some questions, but I get a lot of young general contractors, who are 25, saying, "I want to be a gangster general contractor." And I say to them, "Kiddo, dream big, start small, systemize the s**t out of everything, research financial principles and management and understand business development and how that works in conjunction with human resources." Most of those things were never really said to me as an apprentice carpenter.

Max Peterson:

I think the future of Smith and Sons in Canada and the US is going to be a massive climb to the top, there's no question. The higher the levels, bigger the devils. The challenge, the weight, is on my shoulders, because we are dealing with a lot of general contractors and we've joined forces with general contractors and we've got to have a very clear vision and we've got to maintain our course no matter what happens in the political landscape, in the financial landscape and everything around.

Max Peterson:

We want to be a strong brand that's recognised across Canada, maybe across North America as a brand that comes to mind when you think renovations. Like with hamburgers, you think of a brand, right? That's my little esoteric goal that I'll quietly share with you, Bosco.

Bosco Anthony:

You alluded to the importance of systemisation and it sounds like you're the student of the game when it comes to using systems. How do builders benefit from really mastering systems, and why is it so important today?

Max Peterson:

We say that businesses are run by really good systems, but then you've got to have the ability to recruit good talent. You've got to be a good talent scout. So, you have to be able to systemise, and I think a lot of that starts in the early days by way of really developing technique first and then speed over time once you've spent some time in the seat. That's where you can then start to develop some pretty serious momentum.

Max Peterson:

Rather than get bogged down in the micro details about what we use for estimating and things like that – which I'm always happy to go into, because we get asked all the time – but I think it's the mindset around the power of developing a system or tapping into a system. That could be as much as a training system like APB, getting into those systems, which it's really like you undo one box and you look inside that box and then it's Pandora's boxes; "Okay, what else is in here?"

Max Peterson:

The more you learn, the more you earn. I've had to revisit that kind of mindset, because remember, I didn't graduate from high school. I got out of school in grade 11, so I don't have the credentials nor the experience to have CEO on my business card; it's quite remarkable. But I'm part of an international coaching system in the States, run by a guy by the name of John Maxwell. I've invested there, because I am a coach, I am a mentor, so I've got to get coaching systems clear in my mind and understand what's important to my operators.

Max Peterson:

Then you've got to understand the system of recruiting good talent. There again, it's like I'm saying, "Right, you need good humans to run good systems, you need to be a good talent scout." So what's the system for recruitment? What is the system for managing human resources in perpetuity? So, when you say to me, "What systems are important?" I answer, "All of them."

Bosco Anthony:

All of them.

Max Peterson:

This is why it's not something you can learn at a weekend seminar and say, "Right, I'm a gangster builder, I'm a ninja general contractor." Dude, it's just that technology changes so fast, society changes, therefore mindsets change and you need to be understanding of how to handle things. The classic is the millennials. They say, "No we’re not. It's not the millennials, it's just a different point in time." And so, we've got to adapt, we've got to make sure that we understand, and then we've got to systemise to be able to fulfil whatever we're trying to sort out.

Bosco Anthony:

How's the market doing in Canada right now, Max, when it comes to the building side of things?

Max Peterson:

Yeah, it's pretty lit up. I think we're really fortunate. You're familiar with the lay of the land, from Vancouver Island through Lower Mainland BC and up into the Okanagan Valley. It's a very sought after place to live, so having the majority of my operators in that stretch or in those locations means there's great opportunity there. There's a lot of wealth in amongst it.

Max Peterson:

What we love about renovations and remodelling, and I would say this with cautious optimism, is that it's an industry that is relatively recession proof, perhaps. I might be going out on a limb, I might get bashed on social media for that, but nonetheless, it's an environment that if you do it right, it should be successful. There's a lot of guys doing renovations who are going to struggle, because of their lack of systems in the business, whereas we're at the other end of the scale.

Max Peterson:

It is challenging to develop a franchise brand like Smithy's in Canada, but my background was that I didn’t ever do any cost plus; having fixed price contracts was immediately my point of separation. It was by far my measurable advantage. Now, what I had to do was just convince or show value to general contractors, because they could not fathom the fact that the markup percentage that we applied as a minimum was almost double. It was over double what they would conventionally do, because they're brought up in an ecosystem that just did cost plus for 15 or 20% as a management fee. I say, "Guys, you’ve just got to demonstrate value, authentic value, and look at the right type of client and you'll actually have a better business that makes more money." It's not rocket science.

Max Peterson:

So, the building industry is good, but not only is it good, there's a lot of guys who are obviously making a few dollars doing cost plus. For me to push a franchise brand and introduce a different system, a way of doing business, I've had my hands full. Yeah, I've gone home at night saying, "I think I should just go and build houses myself," because sometimes it's that saying, “Heavy hangs the head of the one who wears the crown.” That's a favourite of mine. It's on my dashboard, actually.

Bosco Anthony:

Are the challenges different in Canada in comparison to Australia and Brisbane for builders, other than the weather, I guess? What do you think are more common challenges?

Max Peterson:

I was chatting to a guy out of Edmonton only yesterday about a franchise. He said to me that he's been in the building industry for 15 years and he's still trying to work out what an appropriate profit margin might be. I said, "Oh my word." And do you know what? I'm sure that is not just a Canadian thing. I am pretty confident from my background and my exposure to the building market in Brisbane, that builders don't know. I speak from personal experience: you go into an apprenticeship, nobody shares with you the intricate nature of how to be successful, more often than not because they actually don't know and they're not very good teachers when it comes to biz dev [business development] or financial management systems.

Max Peterson:

So, there's this constant. It's the same old, same old; it's like Groundhog Day. The next generation of carpenters comes out, they go and get a builder's licence, they go and do their course at master builders like I did. Now I've got a licence to go from doing small carpentry projects to million dollar projects. And yet we don't have any business development experience, we don't have any financial management understanding. It's dangerous. It's brutal.

Max Peterson:

In that regard, the challenge here and there is to understand that your knowledge and experience are worth something, so you should be getting paid to deliver a proposal to clients. You should not be getting dragged around by your nose and quoting for free. That's horses**t; that doesn't happen on our watch. And of course, you've got to understand that your business needs a minimum amount just to keep the lights on and then you've got to understand how your fixed expenses really impact your amount of billables per month to ensure that you maintain profitability. So, it's the same diseases here as what's there, Bosco, that's what I would say.

Bosco Anthony:

What do you miss about the roots of carpentry and building? Obviously, you're playing a bigger game now, but if you look back down memory lane, what's the one thing that you still miss?

Max Peterson:

Mate, I think it's wishful thinking. I romanticise, but I am 49 and I'm not sure that I could spend week after week knocking frames up and pulling floor joints and laying floors and frames and trusses and stuff like that. I think what I do miss and what is a distinct difference between what I do today and what I did back then, and what I do miss about that is that at the end of the day, you can walk away and look over your shoulder, and to this day I can drive around and when I drag my kids back to Brisbane, I say, "Yep, I built that and I built that. And that's the one where you were standing on the roof trusses." That is something, again, it's what I identify with.

Max Peterson:

I do miss the practical nature, because it's where I started. When I go home from the office here of a night-time, I haven't got s**t to look at, other than the investment now that we're making in people. So yeah, I do have to transition from that romantic kind of look that I take when I think about my construction background. Now I'm investing in legacy over currency, although currency's right in there behind. But yeah, I definitely do miss the hands-on, and occasionally I'll pull the tools out at home and tell the kids how good I am.

Bosco Anthony:

So, you chose True North and obviously now you're expanding into the US, do you see yourself ever coming back to Australia?

Max Peterson:

No, mate, I burnt the boats. Look, I tell you what's worked out, and the reason I think it made it a little bit easier to do that, Bosco, is because I do have business partners who are located in Brisbane in the southeast corner. And so, prior to COVID, I was probably on a plane two or three times a year, which is all it needed for me to catch up.

Max Peterson:

And of course, my folks live about 15 minutes from Smith and Son’s head office on the Sunshine Coast, so it was just ticking boxes; it was great. So, I initially made the decision that once I do this and it cost me a small fortune to make the move, there's no way I'm doing this twice. They'll bury me in the great white north, there's no question.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, listen, if you were to go back to running a building company again, and look back at everything you’ve done, what would you do differently? Is there any path or choice that you'd make differently looking back now?

Max Peterson:

At the same time, give or take maybe a few years before I got in as an apprentice carpenter, I did pick the guitar up. I played in a few blues jams and I've meddled with a few cover bands and stuff like that, and I play lead guitar. I often think back, "If I didn't get that apprenticeship, I could have been rocking it out with Cultures or something." I think maybe I would've had enough talent to do it, but I was caught up in the emotion of making money and honestly, I didn't have the academic chops to do anything else, or I didn't have the belief in myself, because the education system didn't really cater for guys who would prefer to look out the window or go and do something more hands-on.

Max Peterson:

I think there is a lot I would do differently in my journey as a construction operative. I think if I was talking to myself around the time I got my builder's licence, I would be saying, "Mate, you need to double down on your understanding biz dev fundamentals and you've got to look into financial management at the highest level, because if you don't, your business will die."

Max Peterson:

So, no, I wouldn't change anything. You've probably heard a lot of people say that, but yeah, rock and roll. I really could have dug to get into the music scene. I do see a lot of people here in this town who say, "I want to be a full-time musician," and they're living in the back of their car, so there's a part of me that wouldn't go back and have another crack at it. I'm happy the way it is.

Bosco Anthony:

At least you're rocking the haircut for a rockstar, so that works in your favour, my man. I'm sure it gives a little bit of Australia away when people see you.

Max Peterson:

Too right. Well, what do they say, business at the front, party at the back? That is absolutely why we do it, so when I get on your podcast and I look down the camera, you can't really see the fluff. But then when we get on stage, yeah man, we just sport the mullet, for sure.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, listen, it's been great talking to you, my man. I'm going to wrap this up with one final question.

Max Peterson:

You're game.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, one final question and it's about purpose. You talked about finding your purpose, you talked about reinventing your purpose, you talked about having new purpose. My final question for you is, what do you think your purpose is today?

Max Peterson:

Helping general contractors succeed.

Bosco Anthony:

As simple as that, hey?

Max Peterson:

Yeah, mate, and don't get me wrong, it is not all blue skies and lollipops. Like I've alluded to already; there are some days. But I have the luxury of associating with people who are in my sphere of influence or network or whatever, who are very wealthy, and some of the guys who I respect the most are the guys who are fairly down to earth.

Max Peterson:

Like I said, it's legacy over currency. In this day and age, and I'm fortunate enough to live in this era and I would love to be a fly on the wall when my great, great grandkids can go and check out old man Max flapping his gums on the podcast or on YouTube if it's still around, if the world's still there – I've got no idea. So there's that part of it, which is what I regard as a great blessing. So, that legacy side of things, because I don't know my great, great grandfather, I wouldn't know him if he walked in the door. He'd be looking a little wrinkly, but nonetheless, I don't know that.

Max Peterson:

So, the purpose is to help a human a day, and that's why I'm going to jump on in 10 minutes on a live Q and A session on Instagram and on TikTok, and basically wait for people to log in and start asking questions. There is absolutely no monetary benefit to that, but I kid you not, Bosco, the fulfilment that I get out of that, based on my experience, is huge. We don't do a lot of technical, I don't think I'm as technical as Russ Stephens, he's a bit of a ninja, but I think there's the little bit that I can help somebody with.

Max Peterson:

I don't know if you've heard that analogy, where a guy was walking down the beach and there were all these starfish on the beach. He picked one up and as he threw it back in, someone said, "Don't worry about it, you can't possibly save them all." He picked another one up and threw that back into the ocean and he said, "Yeah, but I just made a difference in that one's life." And I think, in essence, that's what I'm trying to do.

Bosco Anthony:

If there are two things Russ loves, it's his systems and his accountants.

Max Peterson:

Sure.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, listen man, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. For our listeners out there, you're probably the first guest I've had who actually has a TikTok channel, so what's the TikTok handle? Is it Gangster Builder?

Max Peterson:

Maybe it should be. It’s business_for_builders.

Bosco Anthony:

Business for builders, awesome.

Max Peterson:

We're just about giving value, man.

Bosco Anthony:

All right, my man. Well, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your story, and just being real with us. Our listeners are going to love this and I'm sure we'll have you back again, and I'm wishing you really well from here. Have a Tim Horton's coffee for me when you've done this too.

Max Peterson:

Certainly will. Thanks for having me, Bosco, I appreciate it. Cheers.

Bosco Anthony:

Cheers, my man.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at APB can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com. See you next time.