Episode 69: How To Recruit Top Talent For A Building Company With Sky Stephens

In episode 69 of the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, we’re joined by Co-founder of the Association of Professional Builders Sky Stephens. Throughout this episode, Sky goes over a comprehensive guide to recruiting top talent, saving you time, energy and most importantly, securing and retaining exceptional staff who will help your business succeed.

 

Inside episode 69 you will discover

• Is it a problem with finding the right staff or with underperforming staff?
• The crucial formula for finding top talent
• The #1 list of best interview questions
• Retaining, developing and rewarding staff members
• Why you should be always on the lookout for top talent
• And much, much more.

Listen to the full episode to uncover the key tips, examples and checklists for recruiting top talent for your building company.

 

Sky Stephens - Co-founder

Sky Stephens is a Co-founder of the Association of Professional Builders, a business coaching company dedicated to improving the residential construction industry for both builders and consumers. Sky is a proud member of The National Association of Women in Construction and she was also recognised as one of 2021’s Top 100 Women. 

Connect with Sky

 

Timeline

2:31 Recruitment problems in the building industry

6:48 The magic formula for finding top talent

8:24 Key steps for the perfect interview

31:59 How to retain staff

39:29 Key checklists and tips

 

Links, Resources & More

For APB Members: Training New Team Members Action Plan

For Non-Members: APB Demo

APB Website

APB on Instagram

APB on Facebook
APB on YouTube

Join the Professional Builders Secrets Facebook group for builders & connect with professional builders world-wide.

Sky Stephens:

Is it a problem with you and your company and what you are providing? 

Sky Stephens:

You could have a team member who is underperforming because they never should have been in that role in the first place. 

Sky Stephens:

Are you even clear on the culture of your company? 

Sky Stephens:

Red flags are obvious, but the yellow flags, they're the ones that bite you.

Sky Stephens:

Every single award you win makes someone want to work for you. 

Sky Stephens:

Because if there's no moral compass there, why are they on your team? 

Sky Stephens:

You’ve got to bring meaning and purpose into someone's role and make them realise that what they’re doing is bigger than just them.

Bosco Anthony:

Hello and welcome to the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, a podcast by the Association of Professional Builders (APB) for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company, from sales processes to financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builders Secrets podcast. Joining us today is Sky Stephens, Co-founder of APB. Sky, lovely to have you back with us again.

Sky Stephens:

Thank you. How are you, Bosco?

Bosco Anthony:

I’ve been doing well. We want to talk about how to recruit the best talent for a building company. Is this a problem in the industry right now?

Sky Stephens:

Recruiting is always a problem, not even just in the building industry, but in many industries. Certainly what every industry has seen is that the last couple of years have been really difficult, really dire. I do think it’s particularly difficult for building companies though because of the calibre of person you need on your team because these are complex projects.

Sky Stephens:

You’re dealing with millions of dollars and you’ve got to have the best people possible. It is hard to wade through dozens, even hundreds of applicants to find who is going to be that right person for you and your team.

Bosco Anthony:

Now is this a problem with finding the right staff or is it a problem with having underperforming staff? Is it a bit of both?

Sky Stephens:

Yeah, I’d say so; a little bit of both. If you have underperforming staff, you can look at it in two different ways. Is it a problem with your training or your onboarding? Is it a problem with you and your company and what you are providing? Are you enabling any new staff member to succeed and are you even keeping them growing?

Sky Stephens:

Are you constantly training them, letting them learn new things? Are you doing performance appraisals? That’s definitely one side of it. But also, you could have a team member who is underperforming because they never should have been in that role in the first place. So, making the wrong choice, making the wrong hire is the first hurdle, the first step to consider.

Bosco Anthony:

The question that every builder’s going to ask you is how do you recognise top talent when you see it?

Sky Stephens:

It’s difficult, because it’s not as if you’re trying to hire that person with the sparkle in their eye and you just go on gut feel. It’s a combination of two things. You need to have the attitude, you’ve got to have the cultural fit. But you do need a level of competence. Someone who is coachable, who’s trainable, who is an exceptional cultural fit and does have a decent baseline of knowledge, you can train them in your systems and you really can help them succeed.

Sky Stephens:

But if they’re missing one of those two things, maybe they are an absolute expert on what you need done but culturally they are not a fit, they do not align to your core values, you absolutely should not hire them. But just because they’re a cultural fit and they’re a wonderful person doesn’t always mean they’re going to be an exceptional worker and team member either.

Sky Stephens:

It’s a balancing act that you really need to work through. You’ve got to have a little bit of both, but you need the ability for you as the leader and part of your own company to grow that individual as well.

Bosco Anthony:

So, they have to align with your cultural values is what you’re saying really. If they don’t at the start, then it’s going to be even harder as things progress in the future as well.

Sky Stephens:

Oh, totally. A core value violation is a serious offence, or it certainly should be in every single company, because if there’s no moral compass there, why are they on your team? I’d question how you’re running your own building company. So, you’ve absolutely got to check for a core value fit and alignment even in the recruitment process.

Sky Stephens:

Gosh, you don’t want to figure that out as you’re onboarding them or as you’ve been working with them for a year; that’s difficult. And then you just wonder what else has been going wrong in the company. If they’re so misaligned on a cultural value, what else is happening? So, yeah, absolutely, you’ve got to test for that in the recruitment. You’ve got to really check for that alignment.

Bosco Anthony:

Now are there any best practices that the APB recommends for their builders when it comes to recruiting?

Sky Stephens:

Totally. We even launched an entire recruitment training for every single one of our members. And while I don’t think having a recruitment process is necessarily groundbreaking, it’s just another process you need to have in your building company. There are a few checkpoints that we walk our members through that maybe aren’t groundbreaking, but they’re so important. It’s the sequence of how you’re doing it and understanding why they need to be done and why you never skip them that makes them so important.

Sky Stephens:

We teach a process. Honestly, it starts from how you are even positioning the advertisement. How is your advertisement even written? Are you incredibly clear on what the description is? Are you incredibly clear on what the responsibilities are? Inside your advertisement, are you even clear on the culture of your company?

Sky Stephens:

Because while you’re recruiting and you’re trying to filter through and find the best applicants who come to you, you also need to remember that you’re still selling. You’re still trying to attract amazing talent. So much of this is a balancing act. You’re going to hear me say this the whole time, Bosco.

Sky Stephens:

But it’s a combination: you’re trying to really sell the role and make it sound amazing and exceptional. But on the other side, here are all the responsibilities, here’s what is expected and here are our standards. So, if you want to apply, here’s the process.

Bosco Anthony:

Right. Now, is there a magic formula for the top talent? You’ve talked a little bit about making sure that they blend with the culture, and it sounds like culture is actually part of this magic formula.

Sky Stephens:

Totally. Even if we look at the whole process, you’ve started at the advertisement. There’s a particular way you need to craft this advertisement. But then what is the actual process from this point? The laziest way of recruiting is just accepting anyone who applies.

Sky Stephens:

Just because they hit that button on Indeed or in Seek, they applied for this job, in our opinion at APB, why would you waste your time going through all those resumes? What does reading a resume actually teach you? Not much. It just tells you how good they are at fluffing their experience.

Sky Stephens:

I know resumes are important and they give a lot of context in so many ways. But that, in our opinion, is absolutely not an application. That does not give you any impetus that they actually wanted to work for you and your building company. That’s just someone saying, “I want a job.” So, if you’re trying to recruit top talent into your building company, you are not trying to recruit someone who wants a job, you’re trying to recruit someone who’s looking for a career.

Bosco Anthony:

Right.

Sky Stephens:

When someone’s looking for a career, that means they truly care. Whereas someone who wants a job, in our opinion, is just there to get in, do the work and go home. While that’s okay for some people, if you’re really trying to grow your building company, trying to make a big movement, really trying to change things and you’re really passionate about what you do, you’re spending too much time at work to work with people who are a bit average.

Bosco Anthony:

Now, what are some of the key steps to that whole process of recruitment, specifically in that interview side of things? You talked a little bit about the advertisement and you talked a little bit about the fact that reading resumes isn’t part of the recruiting process, it’s just an indication that they want a job. Take me through the best steps to having the perfect interview.

Sky Stephens:

It’s important to understand that you’ve got to have way more hurdles to jump through before you even get to an interview. I think this is what scares a lot of people from really enhancing their whole recruitment process, because it becomes a really big deal and it’s so much work. But this is how you can just eliminate people who aren’t going to be a great fit for the role.

Sky Stephens:

When you’re thinking of the advertisement, there’s a particular way you need to write it. But there needs to be a really particular way the applicants need to apply. We have a method that we teach, and we’ve taught for years and I think it’s becoming a lot more common; however not common enough because I don’t see it in everyone’s advertisements, which is a shame. But the application has got to be gamified in some way.

Sky Stephens:

For example, “How to apply: here’s what you need to do next.” Make the application really tailored for the role that you are hiring for. If you are hiring for anyone in sales, naturally they’re going to be on the phone all the time. So, their application needs to be about calling this phone number and listening to the instructions. In the instructions, tell them what to do next or what message to leave and what to say.

Sky Stephens:

It’s about how can they deliver an exceptional voicemail. Anyone in sales needs to be able to be prepared and deliver that really well on the phone. If they’re fumbling and stumbling, when you’re grading those applications, they don’t pass. So, that’s a really simple example. For years, every time we hired anyone in marketing, we really needed to make sure they had an excellent eye for detail.

Sky Stephens:

So, this marketing application was step number one, how to apply, email this email address. Attach a markup of this whole advertisement with every spelling and grammatical error that you see. And we know what errors we put, really subtle ones. So, if you are actually good at it, you can tell.

Sky Stephens:

We knew what ones we were looking for, and we could grade those applications. If they did not hit a pass mark, they wouldn’t even be contacted; they didn’t pass. You’ve got to make sure that the application is relevant for the role you’re doing. I think attention to detail tasks are really great.

Sky Stephens:

If you’re looking for someone a little bit more creative, maybe a designer, an interior designer, a selection specialist, whatever role you’re hiring for, maybe there doesn’t need to be a little test in the application, but the application is maybe, “Step one: email this email address.” You want to see a resume, you want to see an up-to-date cover letter. You want to see a portfolio no longer than 10 pages of the most recent works or homes they put together or whatever it ends up being; be specific.

Sky Stephens:

When you look at that application, if they sent a resume and a portfolio but not a cover letter, they’re not able to follow instructions. So, stop allowing people to get through who are trying to bypass the process. This has happened quite recently actually, Bosco. For example, if they are applying and they’re sending an old resume and you specifically said “an up-to-date resume and cover letter.”

Sky Stephens:

I’ve had someone use a cover letter that was so clearly an old cover letter that they’ve used to apply for every job. It had the wrong date at the top and it was from four months ago. Immediately we could see that their attention to detail is poor. It sounds really harsh. You might think, “Oh gosh, this is really difficult.”

Sky Stephens:

It’s like the point we teach in the sales process about supply and demand: you want way more leads wanting to build with you than you can build for. You want way more people wanting to work for you than you have positions available. It allows you to be picky. It allows you to have those really high standards. So, I know I’m still not answering your question because it’s so early on.

Sky Stephens:

You’ve got the advertisement, that’s just for the application. Then you grade those applications; you filter. It’s the mindset of “Who can I get rid of, because they’re not passing?” The people who pass that first stage will get an invitation to a phone interview. That’s a really quick 10-15-minute call. You’re covering all the deal breakers.

Sky Stephens:

You’re getting to know them. You’re trying to verify a few points, and then you can grade them on that phone interview. There are certain things that you’ve got to cover, again, depending on the role, that need to get squared away upfront. But again, you have criteria and you grade them at the end of that call. All of this is completely scripted, so, you’re asking everyone the same questions, conversationally of course, so that you are grading everyone with the same criteria. 

Sky Stephens:

Then you’ll decide who passes to the next round. That’s when you can go to an actual skills test. “Let’s see your experience; show me you have the ability.” This is a really simplified process that I’m talking about now. The more advanced the position you’re hiring for, the more highly paid really you can call it, because they’re going to deliver the most value. There’s a lot more steps for those positions. It’s probably multiple phone calls. It’s multiple skills tests because you’re really trying to test every single area. In those skills tests, this has to be super customised for the person in front of you. What role are you actually hiring for?

Sky Stephens:

Sometimes it involves bringing those applicants on site and doing a walk around with them and then quizzing them at the end or getting them to do a task. We’ve got a whole example. Sometimes it’s about creating a sales script, if you’re looking for a sales leader in the company. It could even be just about creating content calendars. It literally could be anything.

Sky Stephens:

Then you grade those applications that they come back with. Again, it’s all about filtering. You’ve got way more people who apply for the job than you actually invite to a phone interview. And you’ve got way more people who do the phone interview that you even invite to the skills test. And you’ve got way more people who do the skills test who even complete it and pass it.

Sky Stephens:

You can actually then invite people to an interview. Now it’s actually worth your time to sit down and have a really deep interview. “Now I’m looking for even more of a cultural fit. Can I work with you? Do you have the ability to problem solve?” A lot of the time, people aren’t going to know everything. They’re really not. People aren’t going to come into the company knowing everything or how you do it or even have all of the answers when someone asks them a question. But do you know what they need to have? Every single person on your team needs to have this quality: they’ve got to be able to figure it out. They’ve got to be able to problem solve. Because if they can’t do that, then why hire someone who’s not going to take any burden off anyone in the company?

Bosco Anthony:

So, you’ve talked a lot about getting to the interview. What should builders look out for that says, “Oh this is great talent?” Attention to detail was a big one. I chuckled when you talked about the application letter with the four-month old date stamped on it.

Bosco Anthony:

So, obviously that’s important. But also what are some of the other red flags that you want to look out for in an interview process? So, what are the pros and the cons that you look out for?

Sky Stephens:

I love that question because you said, “red flags.” I feel like the red flags are the easiest ones to spot. Everyone knows what a red flag is: they were late; they were late with no real reason or excuse, no apology, no pre-emptive warning. Or maybe they were rude or they did something that was quite obvious.

Sky Stephens:

Your gut always knows when there’s a red flag and something’s not right. So, trust your gut in those instances. I think what’s less obvious are all the yellow flags. These are all the little warnings that make you think, “Oh, that’s interesting.” The most important thing you can do throughout the entire interview process is note down every single yellow flag.

Sky Stephens:

Because if there’s just one, and maybe it was just because they’re a little bit off, they weren’t as warm or easy to build rapport with. Well, if you’re hiring someone for sales, it’s not a good sign. They have to be able to generate a rapport as you talk to them. But if they’re not client facing, they’re more internally based, it’s a yellow flag if you’re wondering, “Can they get on with the team?”

Sky Stephens:

You’re trying to make them fit into your team already. So, start noting down the yellow flags. What you want to be able to do is establish if it was just that one yellow flag right at the start but they warmed up and it was a fabulous process from there on out? Or were there just sprinkles of yellow flags constantly through the process?

Sky Stephens:

That’s when you have to really take a big perspective, a bird’s eye view of it and ask yourself, “Okay, what does this tell me? Is there a theme? What am I seeing?” Red flags are obvious, but the yellow flags, they’re the ones that bite you.

Bosco Anthony:

Interesting. What are your thoughts on recruitment agencies? Do they really help builders today? I’m curious to know if there’s a perspective that might challenge the listeners out there.

Sky Stephens:

I think it’s a really interesting question, Bosco, because I don’t want to lean too much on my personal opinion or certainly our experience personally at APB. I don’t love recruitment agencies. We don’t use them, and the reason for that is a lot of people who are sourced from a recruitment agency have a relationship with a recruiter.

Sky Stephens:

I am pretty sure recruiters say, “No, we don’t like to take them away from you.” I’m pretty sure it’s just for 12 months that they don’t do that. They will call them back up again. So, I just think that’s risky. Now there’s another other side to the coin, because if you’re treating your team well enough, they’re not going to want to leave. So, I get that.

Sky Stephens:

But that said, sometimes people just get offered wild offers. It’s because they have that relationship with a recruiter. Now, that’s certainly one side of it. I have spoken to a lot of builders who have had great results from using recruiters, but maybe they were for very specific positions. So, maybe not back of house positions, maybe not in the office. I have heard of builders having great success with recruiters specifically for trades and people working on site.

Sky Stephens:

So, it’s hard to speak to that. I’ve heard both sides of it. I think our answer and our position would be if you can control it and you can build your own recruitment process and you’re in complete control, why wouldn’t you do that? It’s like dominating your own sales process rather than being reliant on referrals from architects.

Bosco Anthony:

Also, I think it gives you, like you said, an opportunity to recognise some of the things that you’d see in an interview and also the red flags. The things that might come back and bite you as well if you’re involved in that interview process as well.

Sky Stephens:

One hundred percent. In your final interviews, never interview them one-on-one, ever. You always need someone else there because you want to see how they interact with two people. There are so many big companies that talk about this. But they even start grading the people who are getting interviewed by how they interact with the receptionist.

Sky Stephens:

If they’re arrogant and barely look at them and don’t want to talk to them, they don’t belong on the team. Because again, culturally, if you want to build a company like that, that’s very interesting. That’s on you. That’s certainly not what we’d recommend or teach or want anyone to build a company like that. You want a team.

Sky Stephens:

If someone in the interview process can’t respect anyone on your team because they see them as a lower position, they’re below them, why are you interviewing them? That’s not a fit. So, you need to have all these little checkpoints, all of these little tests.

Sky Stephens:

I think it is harder to do that with a recruiter because someone has been asked to move forward. And they almost feel like they can bypass a lot of the steps. So, if you do use a recruiter, make sure you slot that talent into your recruitment process so you can still weed them out.

Bosco Anthony:

Do you recommend multiple sittings for interviews? Like having maybe two interviews or three interviews before you make a final decision?

Sky Stephens:

Yeah, it depends on the role you’re hiring for, naturally. But I do want to preface all of this with speed. Just because you’re having this many steps, doesn’t mean it needs to be a six week-long drawn-out process, because the best people, the top talent that you are looking for are going to be in high demand. So, it’s that word again, it’s a balancing act.

Sky Stephens:

You’ve got to go through as quickly as possible, but as detailed as possible. Make sure you don’t skip any of your steps. So, for some easier positions, maybe it’s only two interviews. Maybe it is a phone interview, an in-person or a Zoom face-to-face online interview. Maybe that’s all you need. But for the more in-depth positions, you’re probably going to meet with them about three times.

Bosco Anthony:

Now what are some of the best questions to ask during an interview? I’m sure every builder wants to know this.

Sky Stephens:

We actually have these documented for our members. We’ve included some phone interview questions that you can ask as well as some final interview questions you can ask. There’s a couple of question that I really love asking people. The first one is, and you’ve got to set it up right; there’s no right or wrong answer here. Quite frankly, you can’t win in the question I’m about to give you. I just want to know what you value more and what you would prefer. So, do you think it is better to be on time or prepared?

Bosco Anthony:

Oh, that’s an interesting question. There isn’t really a right answer to that. They’re both really important too.

Sky Stephens:

I think technically there is a right answer depending how they answer it and what role they’re interviewing for.

Bosco Anthony:

Interesting.

Sky Stephens:

Whatever answer they give you, don’t move on, that’s not the point. You’ve got to note down how they answer it as well. Because some people are not missing a beat, “It’s on time, never be late,” and there’s so much conviction in what they’ve said. So, you’ve got to note that down.

Sky Stephens:

You’re noting down so much more than people’s answers in an interview. You’re noting down how they answer it, what their mannerisms are like, how honest are they, or are they very ‘job interview-y.’ Whatever they say, perhaps it’s, “Yep, it needs to be on time.” You ask, “Why? Tell me why you think that?” or “Why does that matter?” And you want to see where their headspace goes. Naturally, if someone’s in sales or if they are a project manager and it’s all about the timelines, that’s quite good. “Interesting. Tell me more about that. Why?” And you want to hear the argument behind it.

Sky Stephens:

There are some yellow flags that can come out of these. I’ve talked to a lot of salespeople who say, “On time. You can always blag your way through something.” You don’t really want those kinds of people on your team. You want the conviction of “You’ve got to show up on time, so, you’ve got to make sure you are prepared.”

Sky Stephens:

Because if you know that your standard is that you cannot be late, you do everything within your ability to make sure you show up on time and that you are prepared. That said, if something happens, you show up on time and you explain the situation. I love hearing the explanations from people in this question either way. 

Sky Stephens:

Sometimes people are really passionate about being prepared, and that’s when they explain the answer, “One hundred percent prepared. And what we need to do is make sure if we are not prepared, we get in touch in advance and explain the situation, apologise and offer a potential solution, offer to reschedule.” The answers are important, the details to why. But I think that’s a really, really good question to be asking people.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah. Come to think about it, showing up on time is a form of preparation as well. So, it’s an interesting question. You’ve got me thinking there too. Very seldom do I think, “Hmm, but that one was good.” That was really good stuff.

Sky Stephens:

It’s a thinker.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah.

Sky Stephens:

It’s funny because if someone’s not immediate with the answer, they can sit back and say, “Oh, it depends. It depends.” Actually, this is interesting. It’s also very insightful when people won’t answer this question. They might say, “Oh it just depends. I mean they’re both important.” I’d press them, “But if you had to pick one,” and really egg them on here. I’d say, “If you had to pick one, if you had to fall into one of two cans, which one’s more important?” If they are unable to pick a side, that shows you they’re someone who’s just indecisive. How on earth can they make a simpler decision? It’s not a difficult decision to make. You just need to pick a side and then sell your side of it. That’s quite insightful. 

Sky Stephens:

There’s another question that I like, and it’s funny because I asked this one the other day. There are so many questions, obviously. There’s a lot of questions about trying to understand the person: how do they learn best? How do they like to be mentored? Do they really know themselves? How do they learn? What’s their personality style? But specifically, one of the questions I like to ask is people usually fall into one of two categories. And these are just my words, I don’t think these are technical words at all. You’re either a compounder or a chunker.

Sky Stephens:

So, say for example, Bosco, you’ve got a task that needs to get done. It’s a really repetitive task. Something’s happened and there are 200 contacts that you just need to fix up. Pretty simple. But there are 200, it’s not a really quick task. What’s your personality style; what gives you more satisfaction? Do you like to just chunk it down? You go straight through all 200, you get it done, that’s your sense of satisfaction. 

Sky Stephens:

Or are you a compounder? You let the compound effect do its magic and you just do 20 a day for 10 days. It’s not going to take up too much time. You just schedule it and it becomes a non-event. Again, neither answer is wrong, but I need to understand the person in front of me. Your interview is not only weeding people out, but you’re trying to understand them.

Bosco Anthony:

I theme my days myself. So, it’s interesting because there’s so many different working styles to that too. So, some people would just say, “I’m going to go at it and not stop until it’s done.” And there are people like me who theme their days.

Sky Stephens:

But I tell you what, it almost ended up being a trick question and I didn’t even realise it at the time. I was interviewing someone for a leadership position and I asked this question. I got the best answer the other day. Do you know what they said? They said, “Oh, if it was that many things and it’s quite a simple task, I’d just give it to someone else to do.” I thought, “Delegation. Well done.” That was the even better answer.

Bosco Anthony:

Isn’t that the DAD rule? It’s delegate, automate, or delete. I still remember those.

Sky Stephens:

Delete, automate, delegate. Totally. Yeah. So, it was just their immediate thought, “Oh, if it’s that simple, I’m sure we could give it to someone else.”

Bosco Anthony:

All right, so let’s go a little bit further. Does the recruitment process end after an interview or has the work just begun?

Sky Stephens:

I like this question. It’s like an inception question because I think you are always recruiting. A lot of people would say, “Oh yawn, that’s a lot of work to be always recruiting. Sometimes you just don’t have a position.” But what you need to think about in a building company is to build a sales process and your marketing, this needs to be always on. Even if you are booked out for the next 12, 18 months anyway, you never stop. So, you’ve got to think the same way with recruitment. You need to be constantly representing your building company as the place to work. I suppose, though, that recruiting for a particular position stops once you have hired for it, in a technical sense. 

Sky Stephens:

This is why you need to be doing six monthly performance appraisals, making sure your team members are engaged, they are learning what they want to be learning. They are at a level where you need them to be and they’re happy to be as well. But not only that, you’re doing employee net promoter scores. So, you’re really grading and asking all of your team, “Do you feel valued? Are you happy here?” You’re trying to get a temperature check on your existing team. When you get those results, this is part of your ‘recruiting’ because you need to use that in your marketing. 

Sky Stephens:

At APB we went through a Great Place to Work certification. It’s an independent survey that goes through our own team. They surveyed every team member. Essentially, if you pass a certain grade, you could get a certification that you are a great place to work. Now we weren’t even actively recruiting when we went through that certification. But we were pleased to get that done, because when we do need to recruit, we’ve got all these assets ready.

Sky Stephens:

It’s the same in your own building company. Every single award you win makes someone want to work for you. “They are a professional building company. They are an award-winning building company. They’ve got it together. They’ve got all of these reviews on Seek and Indeed about what it’s like to work for this building company.”

Sky Stephens:

So, in a technical sense, I don’t think recruiting stops. You need to be constantly working on the marketing and all of the assets, so you look like the most amazing place to work. That actually influences and helps your recruitment when you are actively advertising and interviewing and filtering through applicants.

Bosco Anthony:

So, let’s just say you’ve hired what we call top talent who started off. How do you set them up for success? Does it start with the first day when they walk into the office? Is there a welcoming way of onboarding them? Is there an onboarding process that you recommend?

Sky Stephens:

Oh, 100%. We even made a completely separate training for onboarding and training new team members. Because as closely linked as it is to recruitment, this is a whole other world in itself. And onboarding has to be done right. I read in a book and I wish I could remember which book it was, but they were talking about why do we have parties and celebrations on someone’s last day at a company? Why do we have a cake and balloons and have a farewell and blah, blah, blah? Why do you celebrate someone leaving but not someone joining? We need to put in just as much effort when someone joins the company. You’ve got to make it a celebration. Make them feel so welcome. Because like anything, you’ve got to get that stick rate.

Sky Stephens:

People can change their minds. If something bad happens in their first week or two or they just don’t feel part of the team, that feeling sticks with them; it stays with them. And they can very easily just start looking for another job. They’re not committed to you in any way just because they signed that contract. You’re still selling it. 

Sky Stephens:

You want to make them feel super involved. Get everyone on the team to make them feel welcome and celebrate their arrival. And set them up for success, like you said, Bosco. You need to have a really detailed training plan, thoroughly detailed with some autonomy in there. But literally take them by the hand and walk them through how they can succeed in this role so they really don’t feel like they got dumped into it.

Sky Stephens:

Because I promise you, when you really listen to people you are recruiting, listen out for how many times people say, “There was no training. I was recruited for this role. I got headhunted. I got put in the role and I had no resources. I don’t really know what I was doing. I had to create this. I had to go out and find Buildertrend or this software and I implemented it.”

Sky Stephens:

While some people can be quite proud of that, you can really hear, reading between the lines, that they felt like they were dumped in it and it was sink or swim. So, they just started swimming like crazy. So, why don’t you give them a head start? Give them some floaties. Let them have a good time and succeed.

Bosco Anthony:

Do you have some quick tips on how to retain staff? You talked a little bit about the fact that if let’s say a recruitment agency brought someone in, you know in 12 months they’re going to be approaching them again for something else. How do you get that top talent to stay there?

Sky Stephens:

I think this is where we come full circle, Bosco. Culture is so important. Among other things, people have to be engaged in the work they’re doing. I think everyone is looking for meaning. This goes really off topic actually. There’s a book called Lost Connections, which is a really interesting book. Have you read it?

Bosco Anthony:

I haven’t, no, but it sounds very familiar.

Sky Stephens:

It’s called Lost Connections and it’s actually a book about mental health. It talks about the link between depression and anxiety. It talks about of all this research, of everything you’re looking for, people are just looking for meaning. If people are doing work that is not meaningful, they’re more likely to go into depression and anxiety.

Sky Stephens:

I’m obviously paraphrasing, but it’s a really interesting book; I would recommend it. But that was really interesting, because if people realise that they have no purpose in the work they’re doing, they stop caring, there’s no loyalty to it and they’re not going to go above and beyond. This is true no matter what you are doing, honestly, no matter what your company does. I know we’re talking about building companies here, but any company can take this on board. 

Sky Stephens:

So, you want to make sure in your team that you bring meaning and purpose into everyone's role and make them realise that what they're doing is bigger than just them. They are serving their local community. If you're trying to make your local community the most liveable place in your state, or whatever, that means your whole service to them, your finished product, how you're interacting with them and problem solving for them, they've got a lot more meaning there. Plus as well, what's their role in the company?

Sky Stephens:

If they are then seen as a leader, you would know what it's like, Bosco, when people look up to you, you again have even more meaning for what you do because you want to help and guide and mentor other people. So, if you can make sure you're giving opportunities like that to people in your team, make them feel like what they're doing has a purpose and has a meaning that something bigger than them, that's huge.

Sky Stephens:

Obviously, training is huge. You got to make sure people feel valued though, and all of this plays into culture naturally. This is just going a bit deep. But you’ve got to make sure every single person feels valued. Every single person on your team is a person first and foremost.

Sky Stephens:

So, get to know each one as a person. There's someone behind who shows up to work. So, you’ve got to understand, know and like your people. There's a job to be done. So, you know all those old-school leaders who are just talking about people who show up to work and it's about being professional. I think we're past that. I think we're really past that. A lot of people say, “It's not about being liked, it's about being respected.” I do believe it can be both. I think you can get a lot more respect and a lot more out of your team if they know and like you as well.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah.

Sky Stephens:

So, it's not about bending over backward to make sure people like you, but it's about making sure there is a level of respect there so you can all get on. But everyone knows there's a job to do as well. I just think that's the way forward. So, you’ve got to make sure people feel valued and it's not always by how much they are paid.

Sky Stephens:

For a lot of people it is. So, you're not discounting that. And this is why you need to literally ask people, “How do you want to be rewarded? How are you motivated?” Sure, money gives people security, but some other people just really value time. So, they value a little bit more time or leave or holidays.

Sky Stephens:

You know what's really surprising, Bosco? A lot of the time it's just recognition. That's all people are looking for. They're looking for that phone call to say, “You know what? You actually were amazing this week. Thank you.” Or sometimes people need public recognition as well. But you’ve got to understand all of your individuals, and I think all of that is just summed up in one word as culture.

Bosco Anthony:

It's interesting because everyone goes through different needs at different stages in their lives and where they're at in their career as well. I've recently met people who are close to retirement. And for them, they just want something that they love doing, but they want the simplicity of it. For others, for me in my time in my life now with all my relationships, it's about creating safety and energy and the people I surround myself with as well.

Bosco Anthony:

So, I think you're right. I think it goes beyond money. It goes beyond the monetary value. I think we just are going through different stages of our lives, and it's really important to know what stage our people are in.

Sky Stephens:

Exactly. And while we're talking about recruiting top talent, often you can recruit people who I would still call top talent, but my goodness, they just become better and better and better with the way you can train them and teach them and mentor them and grow them and grow with them. Just as long as you are growing and becoming a better leader, you can retain top talent and make them even better. And that's the most fulfilling.

Sky Stephens:

But again, if we just rewind what the whole episode, what we're talking about is just get your recruitment process in order. Because I tell you what as well, I think this makes a massive impact. When your team can see that you accept a subpar person on the team, they're not going to try as hard. That's not as motivating. So, when they realise that you're just letting anyone in at this point, there are no standards.

Sky Stephens:

Who we work with impacts everyone. We spend too much time at work to not like people. So, your recruitment process is so important. When you have such a rigorous recruitment process that everyone goes through, there's that mutual respect on the team. “We all made it through. Oh, I had to do that too,” or “You had to do this.” Everyone had to jump through all these hoops.

Bosco Anthony:

Look, I can talk to you about this topic for quite some time. But I'm going to throw you one final question, which is, do you believe that builders should be proactively looking for talent even outside of that interview or recruitment process? Or is there a time and place to look for top talent?

Sky Stephens:

Oh, I think you should always be looking for talent. At the end of the day, always be making your connections. Because even if you don't have an opportunity for someone right now, you don't have to promise anyone anything. You need to have relationships with people in the industry. Absolutely. Even if you just find someone who's not immediately in your industry, but they are an exceptional salesperson or a marketer or whatever, build those connections.

Sky Stephens:

This is where your constant recruiting marketing happens. Make sure they are seeing what your company is achieving. Make sure they are seeing how happy your existing team members are. Because one day the opportunity might be there and you can approach them. This is really important though. If you approach someone for a position, it doesn't mean they skip to the final interview.

Sky Stephens:

You are approaching them to apply, see if they are interested, and make sure they follow the process. Because at the end of the day, every single building company should be so systemised that if someone cannot follow a simple procedure to apply, they're not going to follow any other procedure of yours. So, it's all about weeding them out.

Bosco Anthony:

Always be networking, right?

Sky Stephens:

Apparently, yes.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, I would say that you would probably be sharing some of these checklists and recruitment tips as well to our listeners out there as well on the show notes, Sky.

Sky Stephens:

Yeah, absolutely. What we'll do in the show notes, we'll put a direct link to our course for all of our members on recruiting, even onboarding. But we'll also include a link to the demonstration of membership. Because I'm pretty sure in this demo video, I open up the recruitment process so you can have a little bit of a look as well.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, Sky, lovely to have you again. Thank you for your insights, your knowledge and your tips. I look forward to chatting with you again.

Sky Stephens:

Amazing. Thanks for having me, Bosco.

Bosco Anthony:

Cheers.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at APB can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com. See you next time.