Episode 57: Who Should You Hire Next With Jacob Oelofse

In episode 57 of the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, we’re joined by Jacob Oelofse, one of the executive business coaches at APB. Throughout this episode, Jacob delves into the hiring process and helps you find out exactly who you should hire next.

 

Inside episode 57 you will discover

• Why making the right hire is so crucial for builders
• How to overcome struggles in hiring the right person
• What to look out for in an interview
• How builders can address the labour shortage
• The most important question a builder should ask when hiring
• And much, much more.

 

Listen to the full episode to learn the most important hiring strategies so you can come out with the best candidate despite a labour shortage.

 

Jacob Oelofse - Executive Coach at APB

Jacob joined the APB team in 2021 when he moved his family from South Africa to Sydney. Jacob has coached hundreds of building company owners over the last 15 years. He enjoys stakeholder relations, financials and risk, sustainability, growth, marketing, and maximising profit margins in a company.

Connect with Jacob

 

Timeline

1:49 Why making the right hire is so crucial for builders today

8:32 What to look for in an interview 

20:55 Budget indicators that tell you it’s the right time to hire

23:17 Tips and trends to make hiring easier

33:49 How can builders address the labour shortage?

37:29 The most important question a builder should ask in the hiring process

 

Links, Resources & More

APB Website

APB on Instagram

APB on Facebook

APB on YouTube

Join the Professional Builders Secrets Facebook group for builders & connect with professional builders world-wide.

Jacob Oelofse:

A lot of guys need to move to that growth mindset. They need to have a shift in it. 

Jacob Oelofse:

There's a big shortage at the moment, globally, of good, highly skilled people. 

Jacob Oelofse:

Hire slow and fire fast. 

Jacob Oelofse:

Don't overthink things. The simpler this process is, the better for your business. 

Jacob Oelofse:

They don't actually say, "Okay, what do I need to delegate? What can I automate? What can I delete?” 

Jacob Oelofse:

If I added that fixed expense, what change would that have on that specific contract I'm going to sign?

Jacob Oelofse:

Be honest with yourself. A lot of builders almost feel scared to put up their hands and say, "Listen, I can't do everything anymore."

Bosco Anthony:

Hello, and welcome to the Professional Builders Secrets podcast, a podcast by the Association of Professional Builders (APB) for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales processes to financials, operations and marketing.

Bosco Anthony:

We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by Jacob Oelofse, Executive Business Coach for APB. Jacob, it’s lovely to have you back again. How have you been?

Jacob Oelofse:

Good, thanks Bosco. We were chatting before we hit the record button. It was nice hearing your voice and seeing your face this time, so it's always good to be back here.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah, it's been a hot minute since you've been here before. I mean, we had a great chat the first time, but I'm really excited to talk to you a little bit about the hiring process and who to hire next and doing it properly, I guess. But why is making the right hire so crucial today for builders?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think it comes down to almost a mindset aspect to it, especially when you are looking at the building industry. A lot of guys need to move to that growth mindset. They need to have a shift in it. And I think why it's important to make that decision and why it's so crucial to make the right hire is because it takes a long time. There's a lot of preparation behind the scenes. To make the right hire physically takes a long time. It's not like 20 or 30 years ago where you just go to the street and say, "Hey, I want a guy on this,” and there's five people available.

Jacob Oelofse:

We also know – I think we'll probably touch on this a bit later as well – there's a big shortage at the moment, globally, of good, highly skilled people. We're not talking only on-site, not only carpenters, builders and roofers, it's also in the office. People want different things from a builder, from a company, so it's very important. I think the impact that it has on a building company is far greater than most builders think it has. So it’s crucial. I think it's important for guys to make the right decisions and to hire slow and fire fast. Obviously, with firing somebody, there are things involved with that as well, but I think that principle is important: hire slow, but fire fast.

Bosco Anthony:

And also, if you have the right hire, you don't have to fire anyone at that point too, so it saves time and money. Someone said to me, "It actually costs so much to hire someone, so you might as well do it well." I want you to open up the curtains here because our builders love to hear what are some of the common obstacles, barriers and experiences from other builders as well. So with the builders who you are coaching and mentoring today, what are some of the struggles around hiring the right person? What are they going through currently in the market?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think the main one, and I touched on it a little bit, is just the scarcity of good people at the moment. That's an obvious one we can all see. In general, all builders struggle finding good quality people. But I think it's also the slim pickings part of it, so when they do have a list of candidates, they only have two or three to choose from, it's not 10 candidates to choose from. But I also think the desperation comes in as there's a massive growth, especially with Australian and New Zealand builders, but it's also globally, everybody's still spending money on residential properties, whether it's renovation, or whether it's a new build.

Jacob Oelofse:

The problem that they have is they become desperate. So the struggle that they have is, "I need people, so I become desperate to hire and then I short circuit the process." That's a big struggle at the moment for them. They know that they need to follow some process, and obviously at APB we provide them with the training. But they're so desperate to make a hire because there's this new contract that's been signed, they short circuit that process and that results in poor hiring, hiring too fast and hiring the wrong person.

Jacob Oelofse:

The other struggle, I think, is letting go. A lot of builders struggle to let go of certain roles in the business. They always like to say, "I'm wearing five caps." Some of the builders, when I call them on it, almost seem proud to say, "I'm wearing three or four or five caps." And I say, "But that's not healthy physically, mainly, but it's also not good for the business. I get what you're saying, you're a talented person, but it's not a good thing in the long term."

Bosco Anthony:

How do you work out who you should hire next? What goes into that planning?

Jacob Oelofse:

That’s a good one because I think a lot of guys wing this process. They just wing it and say, “Let’s just decide. Okay, I’m going to hire this person because I think I need them.” At APB, we actually turn this around and we offer most of our builders a five-hour plus session, where it’s a business planning workshop. We touch on all the elements: HR, hiring, the process of HR management, the budget behind it. We actually go quite deep into this. So it depends, from business to business, but that’s one of the elements we touch on.

Jacob Oelofse:

I think that’s important because the process of going through that workshop actually opens up your mind to realise, “Wait a minute, just like I plan to sign a new client or build a house or renovate a property, I have to plan for hiring my next hire. So I can’t just wing it and do it, there’s a planning process and obviously there’s a lot of things behind the scenes: budget for it, when do I hire them?” All those types of things come into that conversation.

Jacob Oelofse:

But I think for us it's about planning for it. You have to look into the future and say, "Where are we taking this business? Are we growing? Are we trying to be stable? What's the thinking behind the scenes? And then plan for that picture that you've got in your mind. So that's the key thing there.

Bosco Anthony:

You've talked a little bit about business owners needing to let go and being on top of the business rather than being in the business, which takes a lot of trust and delegation and hiring people, obviously. So let's talk about how hiring can impact a residential business owner in a positive way. Where do you normally see the impact? Is it financially, is it in the books? Where does that help, typically?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think it has a massive impact across the whole business, but the biggest thing for the owner of the company, and I want to use this word, is ‘freedom’. It gives them the freedom, but not what people think, to take a surfboard and go for a surf every day. That's a good freedom to have as well, but it's about actually now having freedom in your mind to apply thinking to the business, to analyse your business. You might be fighting fires every day, running from site to site, organising everything, doing everything, but when you have a good team and you are hiring the right people, it gives you that freedom to actually focus on the big picture.

Jacob Oelofse:

A lot of guys forget that. When I ask them this question as a building company owner, I'm saying, "What would you do if I gave you 10 hours this week as part of your working hours? What would you do if you had 10 extra hours?" Most of them don't know what to do with it. The other ones say, "I'll go and play golf, I'll go surfing, or I'll go fishing," or whatever their hobby is or, "I'll spend more time with my family." Great things, good answers. They’re almost like textbook answers.

Jacob Oelofse:

But the reality is you need to take that time to apply to thinking and planning the future of the business. That's the benefit there: it’s that freedom I'm talking about. You need to have the freedom to work on the business, that's the biggest thing that I picked up. A lot of guys see this impact that they have when it's a positive hire. The site supervisor doing their job, the carpenter is on key, the admin is in the office, the estimator is doing what they've been hired to do and following a process, and it gives them that freedom.

Bosco Anthony:

Let's talk about the journey of the interview process. Obviously, that's crucial when you're making the right hire. Typically, the two areas that make that first impression would be the interview process and potentially a reference check. What should building company owners today look for in an interview, either the right things or the red flags? And what are the things that you want to look for in a reference check as well?

Jacob Oelofse:

That's a good question because like I said earlier, a lot of guys rush this process. They talk to somebody who talks the talk; they sound great, and they look great, and they sound very experienced. And then three months into the hire they realise, "Wait a minute, this guy can't even do half the things he was talking about in the interview." That comes, obviously, to the reference check, which I'll come to in a minute. But I think the important thing is the little nonverbal clues you pick up during your interview process.

Jacob Oelofse:

That's why we've got a process we follow with all our APB members. We take them through what to do when hiring a new staff member on-site or in the office. The interview sequence, the advertisement sequence, how you advertise for the role, how they respond to it. Every piece of that process is planned out with intent. If it's somebody who needs to be attentive to detail, the interview, the advertisement, the job description will be lined up to pick up if they're actually somebody who pays attention to detail, for example.

Jacob Oelofse:

We've picked up there that in the action plan or the training we've done, after the APB members have watched it, they come back to us and say they've never realised that it's actually a formal process that takes place. It's not just putting an advertisement up on some job site and then interviewing a couple of people. The follow-through when it comes to the reference check is so important and a lot of guys don't even do the reference check. They are so overly sold on the candidate they feel, oh, they trust this guy or this woman who they’re now going to hire, so they don't have to do a reference check.

Jacob Oelofse:

We need to be conscious here, across the globe different rules apply in different countries. In some countries you're not allowed to give a negative review as the employer of that person because then you are restricting them from getting new work. So you need to be very creative in the questions as the building company owner when you ask these reference checks questions. You hear Sky mentioned in one of the trainings where if you interview or call three people as a reference check and they all sound very robotic and very much the same, they've been scripted, they've been asked by the candidate to give those answers.

Jacob Oelofse:

But there's a nice way to go around it where you actually have to be very strategic in the questions you ask and also the follow-up questions and the answers. So you can pick up if they even know the person. "Hey, this John I'm talking about is actually the John that they've got in mind. It's not John number seven.” He knows the actual person you're talking about. 

Jacob Oelofse:

We've picked up a lot of builders when they come into the APB program and they start with the trainings, they don't do a reference check. They don't see it as important sometimes because they're so desperate, they just want to hire the person. They don't realise spending that 20 minutes on a phone call can save you 200 hours of nightmare afterwards. So it's very important to follow a strategic process when hiring any new candidate, whether it's the admin support, the labourer, right up to a GM in your company, there needs to be a formal process you follow.

Bosco Anthony:

Yeah. It's interesting when you talk about making quick decisions or hasty decisions when you're desperate that can actually end up hurting the business even more. You talked about doing a five-hour workshop, you alluded to strategy and planning. Do you need a strategy for recruiting, and how far out should building company owners be planning for? Is it just the next 12 months? Should they have a game plan that's a three to five or 10-year roadmap? What does that look like for you?

Jacob Oelofse:

Most definitely. I think when it comes to strategic planning with all the elements, it needs to be three years and beyond at least. For a lot of building company owners, it's quite difficult. “Three years from now, I don't even know what I will look like in three years from now.” So at least if you can have an average three to five years, that's ideal; beyond that would be exceptional. But at least if you can do a three-year plan, what will the business look like in three years? What will the team need to look like?

Jacob Oelofse:

A disconnect that I pick up is when we do the business planning workshop with the builders, they don't see the connection between the disciplines. They don't realise that they need to include HR. When they set a sales target or they set a revenue target or they set a net profit target, it's directly linked to their marketing, to their sales, to their construction site. But they always leave out the HR element. They always forget that, "Oh, wait a minute, if I want to make $10 million of revenue in the next three years, my team is going to probably have to double or triple." And they never think, "Wait a minute, if that's going to be the case, when do I need to start planning to make those hires?"

Jacob Oelofse:

So the strategic part of the planning process is crucial. Two to three years at least, ideally more, actually. So that's crucial, it's a most definite have-to-do.

Bosco Anthony:

So would that mean that the business owner would need an organisational chart or sort of a mapping to identify where to fill things up?

Jacob Oelofse:

Yes, most definitely, and I think a lot of builders misinterpret this. Sometimes they don't know what an organisational chart is – and there's nothing bad about that. I've asked a lot of builders in a one-on-one session, "Do you know what an organisational chart or org chart is?" And then when it's one-on-one, they admit, "I've got no idea what you're talking about." The ones who do know a little bit say, "Oh, I've heard this somewhere on an APB podcast,” or “I've read this in a book,” or something like that. Then I say, "Okay, so what is an organisational chart?" "It's this little picture with little bubbles with people's names in it," and that's about the extent that it goes to.

Jacob Oelofse:

Actually it's much more powerful than that. So an org chart is a definite must. It's an element of the business that you actually need to revisit on a regular basis as part of your quarterly strategic planning and your annual strategic planning. It needs to be part of that process, no exceptions. It's very important. But you need to understand the principle. 

Jacob Oelofse:

The principle is to have the view of those little bubbles that they mention, usually it is in bubble format, and you can get many software programs that do it for you. But it's what's happening behind the bubble that’s important. There is a name or a position, but what’s coming behind it? I think a lot of guys don’t realise that just drawing a few names on a chart or on a piece of paper does not mean you have an organisational chart. It goes a lot deeper than just this one-page picture that gives you a visual perspective of the business as it is now versus two years from now. It’s a lot deeper than that.

Bosco Anthony:

So with the organisational chart, just to follow up on that, should building company owners look at also putting roles that they want to fill in the gaps or would they just put the names of people who currently work in the company?

Jacob Oelofse:

No, definitely. I think you touched there on something important. When they develop the organisational chart, you want the now picture. So first start with, "This is what it's looking like now." But take away the names. Do not put the company or the employee names next to it. You say, "There is a CEO. There's a general manager. There's a sales manager. There's a sales assistant. There are three carpenters." So put the positions down, and then you go and put the names next to them for the now picture. Then you're going to realise, "Wait a minute, poor Sarah is everywhere in the office," or "Bosco is everywhere on-site; he's doing everything."

Jacob Oelofse:

That's when you go to the next level and say, "Okay, so in the future we need to take some things away from certain people, which creates a new position. So it's definitely the now and then pictures. We need to go forward to that. Again, like I said, I've got some builders I work with who have this planned out for the next three years, and then we actually plan for that process to fill those positions over the next three years. It's a rollover, so once you reach the end of one year, you actually plan the next three years, so it's always pushing it to the next three years.

Bosco Anthony:

So can you break down the process or exercise of figuring out how to hire next? What goes into this? That's really an important part of this conversation, I guess.

Jacob Oelofse:

Yeah. I think it touches a little bit on the previous question. I've worked out from working with APB members and my experience in working with company owners and specifically with builders, that you have to reverse engineer the process. It's just like building a house. I love this because it's the best analogy. There needs to be a plan drawn up first. "This is what the house should look like after the project is finished." There might be alterations along the way, there might be variations throughout the process, but the initial plan is it's a four-bedroom, two-bathroom house, with a study and a games room, and whatever else is in the house.

Jacob Oelofse:

The same for your organisational chart and your team that you're trying to build. You have to go to the future and then reverse engineer this back and look at it budget-wise, time-wise and skill-level-wise. If you're hiring a site supervisor, for example, it's a very high skill, somebody who's qualified, who's going to cost the company a lot more. Then we go into that process of saying, "Okay, so in five years’ time I'm going to need two site supervisors, but when do I hire the first site supervisor and when do I hire the second one?" and reverse engineer that process. 

Jacob Oelofse:

As we walk through that step by step, you actually start to realise, "In the current market, if I put out an advertisement, it takes me about four months to actually make the hire," then we can reverse engineer that timeline and put it as a visual for the building company owner to realise, "If I need a site supervisor or a person by December or by January next year, I actually need to advertise in June this year already to get that process going."

Bosco Anthony:

So do you hire for business needs, or do you hire for potential growth? I've always struggled with this because when is the right time to make that move?

Jacob Oelofse:

Yeah, that's a tough one. You're putting me under the bus here because that's always the question I get, "Which one do I need to hire? I need an admin person, but I want a site supervisor, or I want somebody else."

Bosco Anthony:

You've been hanging out with too many builders, Jacob, I apologise.

Jacob Oelofse:

No, that's good. It’s a good question, and I think it comes down to the planning part we spoke about earlier, that we encourage, and we motivate as a minimum to aim for a 10% net profit. In any building company, that's what the retained profit should be in the business. Now that gives you power, if you've got that in position. Let's choose a scenario of a builder who’s making a good 10% net profit year-on-year, they’re retained profits. That company most likely, 100%, 150%, has a growth mindset, they want to grow the business. They can afford to hire somebody two or three months before they actually need them.

Jacob Oelofse:

Now that's a key question. "How do I know I’ll need them in three months' time?" That is coming back to that business planning workshop. If you’re aiming to go from five projects to 10 projects next year, you’re selling those business slots or those construction slots for the new builds. So in reality it means you know you'll need a supervisor by March next year to start helping with three new projects starting off because it's going to be three more than you used to have. Okay, so you've got a due date and now you reverse engineer that back to it and say, "Okay." Now that's a growth mindset.

Jacob Oelofse:

But now the other 50% of builders don't have cash reserves, they don't know where to start so they need an admin person, or they need an estimator in the business. That's where we go and ask two questions, "Before you go and hire this person, are you following that DAD principle? Can you delete that task, can you automate it, or can you delegate it?" And when you really dissect this, most tasks can be either deleted or automated before you have to delegate to a staff member.

Jacob Oelofse:

A lot of guys jump immediately to delegate, "Oh, I need to delegate my admin process or my marketing process." But you can automate that with a software program for $200 a month, you don't need $20,000 for that specific activity. But they don't go through that exercise. They don't actually say, "Okay, what do I need to delegate? What can I automate? What can I delete?" So it's very important and the sequence of that is also important. You first see, “Is this important or not important?” Then you delete it, and then go to automation, and then go to delegate. So it's very important, depending on where you are, but those are the two major groups I've dealt with in the past.

Bosco Anthony:

You talked a little bit about net profit – I'm assuming the budget indicates when the trigger point is to hire someone. So what do you look for in a budget to say, "Hey, now's the right time to make that decision"?

Jacob Oelofse:

That's a good follow-up on our previous question. It's a difficult question to determine the answer for because when you look at it, it should be part of your organisational chart planning process to say, "Wait a minute, if we're planning to hire somebody in the next 12 to 18 months, how much cash reserves should I have versus how much cash do I have on hand?" It might even trigger some sales changes. It might have to go into that process as a building company to say, "We will not have that cash available unless we sell two additional jobs."

Jacob Oelofse:

To determine your budget, the easy starting place is, "What is the current market paying for that position?" and be realistic on it. If the current admin support person is $65,000 a year, you need to figure out currently do you have the correct margins in place to cover that fixed expense? Part of the business planning workshop is to determine your fixed expenses. What is involved in it? Who's in that? What is on the list of fixed expenses?

Jacob Oelofse:

Then you start adjusting every new project that you will actually sign on as a contract to say, "Let's incorporate that as if we've already hired that admin person. Is that going to be possible?" Just as a bit of a what-if scenario. "If I added that fixed expense, what change would that have on that specific contract I'm going to sign?" Because remember, it's not that one project that will carry that fixed expense. You're going to split that over all projects and a lot of guys forget that. They think, "I'll just add that $65,000 to one job." No, you're going to add it proportionately.

Jacob Oelofse:

So the budget question is an activity you need to plan for. You can't just swipe your credit card to hire somebody and hope they'll make you money; that's not going to work. You need to plan this as part of your business planning, but also strategically to say, "What do I need to do to get to that point?" A lot of guys are earning $200,000 a year and they're not willing to sacrifice that. Whereas I've worked with other builders who say, "Do you know what? I can sacrifice $50,000 this year to at least get the business going with it."

Jacob Oelofse:

It's a difficult question to answer, but the budgeting part is a planned activity. You need to plan for when, how and how much money you need, based on current market conditions.

Bosco Anthony:

What tips would you recommend to builders out there that you know APB members use to make this process of hiring the next person a bit easier? You're around people in the membership, people who you're mentoring and coaching – what are some of the trends and tips that you're seeing out there right now?

Jacob Oelofse:

The first thing that I would pick up is to be honest with yourself. A lot of builders almost feel scared to put up their hands and say, "Listen, I can't do everything anymore." So, the first thing is to be honest with yourself and just say, "Okay, I need to hire somebody." That's the first step. Then the process will start, and you need to go through the trainings and the action plans to get all the basics in place. That's what I picked up. We spoke a bit earlier about doing a reference check; that's a basic thing that should be done. There are a lot of tips and tricks we can go into in detail but do the basics first. A lot of guys skip that step, and they want to make this whole process very complicated.

Jacob Oelofse:

In the training that we offer our members, we actually talk about gamifying the hiring process. You need to remember that when you follow these steps that we guide you on, I can give you super-duper tips to follow and all these things, but if you don't do the basics, it doesn't mean anything. But there's one or two things we need to focus on here. Let's talk about this gamifying. If it's not fun for you as the builder doing this process, imagine what the candidate feels like. So think about that and gamify it. We're not playing a football game here, but it's about making this an interesting journey for the candidate and for you.

Jacob Oelofse:

I’ve gone through this at many levels with some of our builders. I’ve gone it through it myself where I’ve been part of this process. When you go and do the specific steps as part of the hiring process, you actually feel like you are already part of the business. So when that candidate comes into it, and that’s the tip I want to give to builders here, don’t make this a corporate process. You’re hiring somebody and you’re going to be in their face; probably you’re a small team, you’re not going to be one or 500 people, that’s not who you’re going to deal with.

Jacob Oelofse:

So you want to first of all make sure that the process is fun, but it follows the basic principles, follow that bouncing ball, you have to do the basic things right. But it needs to be planned, it needs to be scripted, it needs to be part of your company manual, so it’s literally a flick of a switch and you can hire a new carpenter. A flick of a switch, you can hire an admin support. So that’s my tip, to keep it simple, keep it basic, and then add the bells and the whistles when it comes later. Just do the basics right, and make sure that the process is fun for both parties concerned, the company and the person you’re hiring who is actually coming into the business.

Bosco Anthony:

Should you be hiring for a full capacity as well? I’ve always wondered, do you want the new person to be really busy? Do you leave room for growth? How does that work, typically, when it comes to a capacity perspective?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think we live in a very interesting time at the moment. There’s a lot of highly skilled people who have moved away from the old ways of working 40 hours a week. It’s about productivity. If you can get a person to do something in 25 hours, why do you need them there every day? It’s about structuring that position. And I think it’s a valid question. A lot of guys, especially when it comes to the office side of things, feel the person needs to be there Monday to Friday. But I’ve seen magic happen with remote workers working 12 hours, 18 hours, and they get a lot more done than a full-time person sitting there in the office. And think of the resources that you’re saving there.

Jacob Oelofse:

So definitely when you plan this out, you should link it to, “Okay, but the tasks that I’m giving them are a 20-hour job per week.” So you don’t have to; you can always give them the option to say it might become more, but there are so many people at the moment looking just for 25 hours or part-time work, work from home, a stay-at-home mum who’s highly skilled but she does not want to go back to the corporate life. She enjoys her kids, she wants to work for four hours every day, and she’s super-talented.

Jacob Oelofse:

I’ve actually worked with two or three builders who hired somebody like that and they can’t believe how productive and efficient they are. And they pay them well. Don’t get me wrong, don’t think 25 hours is going to be cheap. It’s a good investment, but you get what you pay for. So definitely I would not think it has to be full-time; it’s about output, it’s about what you can get out from them at good value.

Bosco Anthony:

It’s interesting you talk about the nine-to-five and the concepts of it. As you know, I’ve done a TED Talk, and one of my future plans is to do another one around the future of work. I’ve been doing some research around this and it’s interesting because the concept of nine-to-five was invented in the 1800s, during the manufacturing era. So obviously times are changing, and obviously it took some global events for us to realise that how we work now needs to be a lot smarter, so I smiled internally when you said that.

Bosco Anthony:

So if we’re talking about the future of work and we’re talking about working smarter, does that mean we need to change what a job description looks like? Is a job description relevant today?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think a job description is still valid, but it’s the way you approach it that has changed. A lot of guys look at it as a list of items, almost like a menu, and you tick all the boxes and that’s your job description done and dusted. But from a candidate’s point of view, you need to almost entice them. You need to almost make them want to taste this business and say, “Wait a minute, the way that these guys have structured this job description for me, it almost feels like I want to work.” Now, that’s difficult to get somebody to say, “I want to work,” because most people these days want a quick win and to not work; they want to get paid a lot of money.

Jacob Oelofse:

But this job description needs to also sell the position. It’s a lot more than just what you offer them as a salary, what are the tasks involved. The job description should actually educate them on what could be done when they come into the role. You also need to put a few crumbs down to say, “This is an evolving position. We want you to grow in this position. You’re not going to be stagnant.” It’s not just that old style copy-paste, put it in from some other builder and copy their job advert. You need to be very creative. But it’s still valid, I would not go off it, it’s just the approach that you take on how you develop it that's important.

Bosco Anthony:

Are there any tools or processes that APB recommends to builders out there to determine their next hire?

Jacob Oelofse:

We touched on a couple already. I think it’s the planning workshop that’s quite important. That’s the process of planning and we actually provide them with a workbook to do that in. The org chart, organizational chart, is a very highly underestimated tool because you can make that very powerful with a lot of apps, and I’ve done magic with Google Docs in the past and Google Sheets where it works the magic. We’ve actually got an org chart builder that we use inside APB, where it’s one of the trainings. There’s a download where you can develop who you want to hire, plan it out, and then you literally copy it over and it gives you that visual picture.

Jacob Oelofse:

But then the next level is actually now building the job description, the hiring process and everything behind it. So the tool we use with that organisational job planner is so basic and simple but it’s almost like this light-bulb moment that a builder has where they say, “I should have done this 20 years ago.” It’s because we’re giving them the tool where they can just input their information. 

Jacob Oelofse:

But there’s another thing that’s also important here. We need to remember that the tools we use to plan the hiring of people will always be linked to the other disciplines. What’s your sales target? What’s your revenue target? And there’s a little dotted line between those two activities. So they shouldn’t forget, it’s not a process or a tool in isolation, you always need to bring that as part of the business.

Jacob Oelofse:

But I also think when we look at the tools we want to use here, don’t go and overthink things. The simpler this process is, the better for your business. If you overthink it, then you want to go and spend hundreds of dollars a month on some other platform or some other thing that looks all flashy, but it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do.

Jacob Oelofse:

I think the last thing that’s also important is, although this comes after the hire, is a training or onboarding plan. That is almost like you merge that as part of the hiring process. A lot of guys forget that even if you’re in the onboarding phase, that’s still the point where you or the new candidate can call it quits. There’s a probation period, where all these things come into play. So that’s part of the hiring process, the onboarding tool, the one that we give builders in their training as well.

Bosco Anthony:

What’s the one thing that builders underestimate when determining to hire their next new team member? What do they take for granted sometimes?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think there’s a couple of things, but I’ll talk about two. One is the process involved. I think a lot of guys underestimate that there’s a step-by-step recipe to follow. It’s not just, like I said, 20 or 30 years ago: “Put up your hand, I’m looking for somebody.” It is a process that has to be implemented. That’s important, that’s one thing. The second thing is the time it takes. A lot of guys underestimate that the physical time, putting out the ad until they hire the person, might be three months, six weeks, six months in some areas. But they underestimate the time it takes to prepare for that process; there’s a lot of things behind it.

Jacob Oelofse:

Calendar blocking is important. As the owner of the company, you are probably going to do the interviews. So you need to block time in your calendar for doing the interviews and reference checks. You cannot delegate some of those things to your assistant in the office or to your chippie [carpenter] on-site. That’s not their role; it’s your role as the owner. So I think a lot of guys underestimate the time involved in doing it.

Jacob Oelofse:

Then I always get asked the question, “But I don’t have time, so where am I going to get time to hire somebody to make more time?” Then it’s like this conundrum of, “I need more time so I’m hiring people to make more time, but I don’t have time to interview them.” It just means for that next couple of weeks, your days are going to be longer. A lot of guys underestimate that you’re actually going to work more in probably the next six months to work less after that.

Jacob Oelofse:

So it’s also that acknowledgement that it’s going to take time, but do not skip any step in that process. A lot of guys underestimate the smaller things, the nonverbal clues. The fact that you said the closing time is at two o’clock and the guy tries to squeeze an application in at half past two, you need to be disciplined enough to say, “But my time was two o’clock and if he’s here at half past two, he’s probably not the best candidate, he’s going to do that on the job as well.” So you need to be strict with yourself as well.

Bosco Anthony:

You talk about short-term pain for long-term gain, I guess, is the way they say it. Well, look, I could talk to you for hours on this topic, but my final question for you is around the current trends. Obviously, it’s no secret that there are labour or hire shortages everywhere around the world. Speaking to past builders from different parts here, this is something that’s been brought up on a lot of different interviews. What should a building company do to think outside the box or to get creative, or is there an unorthodox approach to addressing this labour/hire shortage?

Jacob Oelofse:

I think the one thing we touched on a little bit is that gamifying process. It should be a fun and interactive process, but still be professional in it. So that’s the one element we touched on, but I won’t go deep into that. But I think it’s also important when the current trends that you pick up in your area might be different to another area. So do the research, make sure that you know in your area what is the actual data. 

Jacob Oelofse:

Don’t assume that a guy 500 kilometres from you or 500 miles, depending on where you are in the world, wouldn’t be interested. I’ve seen this a lot. A lot of guys are actually moving states because they’re tired of the hustle and bustle; they want to go to a different state. So widen your net, that’s the one thing that I’ve seen a lot of guys don’t do; they just advertise locally. Widen the net nationally; you never know what guy or what woman is looking to relocate and make a new start to their life, that’s a key thing there.

Jacob Oelofse:

But also, I think we need to also realise that it’s not about the money anymore. A lot of guys still hire, thinking “Oh, if I pay them at the top end of the pay bracket at the moment that people pay, I’ll get the best person.” Not necessarily. I know a lot of graduates who have got four months’ experience who are the manager of a company but cannot manage. It’s sad, but that’s how we’ve become. So I think it’s also important the offer we make. So in that final part of this hiring process, remember it’s not just about the money; the age groups have changed; the times have changed.

Jacob Oelofse:

As an office support person, as a supervisor, my motivation will be money to a certain extent. But if you tell me, “Don’t worry, every second week you take half the Friday off paid,” that might be a massive attraction for me as a site supervisor because I’ve got two young children. So it is very important, I think we need to move away from, “It’s just about the money.” It’s also about my lifestyle as well as an employee in your company.

Jacob Oelofse:

Then I think the most important one is future growth. A lot of guys want to see, “When I join this company, if I stay with them for two, three, four or five years, I could end up as a site supervisor, if I’m a carpenter. If I’m a site supervisor, I could end up as being the GM in five to 10 years from now. There’s a path for me to grow in this business.” I think the most important one is we should not try to limit the growth of any candidate. If they’re with you, get the best from them, give the best to them. Even if they leave, that’s probably one of the best things you can do – and our builders have to agree with me on this – if they leave your company, and you've trained them and you've educated them, and they start their own building company.

Jacob Oelofse:

If you’re thinking, "No, but now I spent all that time and money and effort on them." That says, actually, a lot more about you. It says you're actually very good at what you do; you train people well. Yes, you might now think you've created competition, but you've actually created another professional builder. And if you look at it from that point of view, it's okay because for three or four years, you've got a very highly skilled person who probably trains other highly skilled people in your company. It's an approach that you need to look at from a building company: don't look at the short term, always plan longer than three years, then the magic starts to happen.

Bosco Anthony:

Every interview I've had with you, I've always thrown you a curveball question. So I'm going to end with a curveball question. I remember the last one had to do with the book you were reading, I'm fairly certain, but I'm curious to know what is the one most important question an owner should ask someone in the hiring process? I usually ask people what their purpose in life is, because it tells me a little bit about who they are. But in today's world, and from all the coaching sessions and mentoring sessions you've had, what's a really good question to ask, and we'll end the interview with this question in mind.

Jacob Oelofse:

Okay, so the very last question that the building company owner needs to ask his candidates sitting there. Okay, that is a curveball question because there are so many positions. But I think it's important, especially with the past two or three years that everybody's experienced, I think a good question would be to make it a non-business question. The question I would ask if I was a building company owner is, "Why would you stay in this industry if you know what's currently happening in the industry?"

Jacob Oelofse:

There's no right or wrong answer there because it's their perspective. Because a lot of people see the building industry as, "Oh, it's a horrible place to be, and it's always stressful," which we agree with. We know there's a lot of builders going through tough and difficult times. But imagine the answer you'll get from a site supervisor or a carpenter who says, "I'm super passionate about carpentry and I love creating things and being part of this bigger thing." That's a good answer. But if somebody says, "Nah, the money's good," immediately the cultural fit would not be there because they'll reveal something that they would do unexpectedly, just like what you've done with me now, it's like a curveball question. But if you ask them, "Why the building industry? Why would you stay here even if you know what's happening?" I would love to hear some of those real-life answers from candidates if I was a builder.

Bosco Anthony:

Well, in respect to the fact that you called this gamification, I'm going to say thanks for playing with me today, Jacob, it's been great. I totally enjoyed having you on the call today as well, and I look forward to having you here again in the future.

Jacob Oelofse:

Thanks a lot, Bosco. I always enjoy our sessions and to all the builders out there, keep at it, we know you're doing good work, so all the best.

Bosco Anthony:

Cheers, man.

Jacob Oelofse:

Cheers.

Bosco Anthony:

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your favourite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at APB can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com. See you next time.